[pm people and rules to live by.]

*snip*I will put it this way. I am Player A. Player A is a solid player. Player B is loose and passive and on a card run. Player A has lost $100 to Player B because of bad luck. Player B loses money to Player C (a good player) because Player B could not break Player C's AA etc.etc.etc. and then the inevitable happens and Player B is now out of money and Player C is pointing across the table at Player A and saying "Haha you suck I have your money" and Player B leaves and is replace by Player D (a very capable player who is tracking the table and thinks it is a profitable table). Player D will not pay back Player A (in theory) only Player B's will (in theory) and now that the table is being replace with better players, Player A now should LEAVE the table and do what Player D was doing and find a better table. This is my logic.*snip*

There's this key on your keyboard called "Tab". Use it now and again. Or go back to 2nd grade and re-learn "Paragraph's", since it obviously escaped you the first time.

Dude, stop being your totally insulting self when people are making sense. Your first post was right on because firstyearclay hadn't explained himself on his last point. He then explained himself (and was pretty understandable imo), but didn't seperate into different paragraphs enough for you. So you ignore what he said and yell at him to use "Tab".Anyway, his point is utterly valid, in the senario he gave, you should indeed leave. A lot of good tables do turn to crap when the worst 2-3 people bust out. He's talking about being sensitive to table texture and not just look at pot average, or just the fact that the table USED to be great.As long as he didn't just mean leave when you're down period, which he clarified.

[Your first ROYAL FLUSH and how it went...]

All 4 royals I have in tracker are from limit, and every single one (oddly enough) I hit on the turn and only the turn. Oh and all 4 use both cards. :)I have at least 1 more from before I ever used tracker when I was starting out at pokerroom.com.First royal listed is on 2/4 June 6th.Second royal is on .5/1 (was helping a friend start out in .5/1 hah) on June 16th.Third royal is on 10/20 on Sept. 16th.Fourth royal is on 15/30 on Jan 26th.That's my sum total in tracker.All of them except the 10/20 got paid off pretty big. That one sucked because I flopped K high flush and turned the royal, so 4 hearts were on the board on the turn (and obviously nobody had any high hearts).

[so i went back to party....]

great post suited up, and thanks smash for the hand for hand advice.....regarding your last post, how can you be sure that 6 will see the flop and there wont be a raise?are you saying you SHOULD call with 55 under the gun?

He's saying it depends on your table, you decide based on the past X hands you've been there. But he'll answer for himself. But if every hand has 6 or more people seeing the flop, and isn't raised preflop a ton, you surely limp 55 UTG.

[so i went back to party....]

OK thanks, I not saying not to play them. I am saying personally i prefer to play them in Late position. Doesn't hurt to limp in though .55 is not a drawing hand and even if you hit your set. and have 6 people in the pot with you. Chances are they will be drawing. So that is why i would say raise in first position and narrow the field if you choose to play it from first. I may be wrong with that theory.

Yeah, you are wrong in this case. We're talking loose tables. You want in cheap,and you WANT the 4-6 limpers. You fold if you don't hit your set on the flop, unless the flop is like 346 rainbow. Raising on a loose table won't get you HU on the flop, and you're just killing your odds.On a crazy-tight table this might be a raise, but few online low-limit tables are ever that tight. Shorthanded is a diff story, real shorthanded I mean 3-4 people. We're not talking about that.

[so i went back to party....]

Any hand I didn't mention I think you played fine or it wasn't worthy of mentioning.Overall you played ok, but a bit too loose preflop. KJo and QJo are the devil unless you're in the Button/Co or maybe one before that.I read all the hands you posted but haven't read others responses yet, I'll post this first. I mentioned hands in order, but skipped a lot of them.QJh hand: You didn't play this too badly IMO, but I would have given up on river. And there was no diamond draw, the flop was rainbow. To me it was pretty likely he had the 9, or a PP. Though sometimes 2 overcards will call there, but still nothing will have called flop and turn you can beat really.55 in early hand: It's ok to limp these if there are usually 3 limpers per hand, I'm not sure if your table was that loose. In your actual hand you didn't get as many limpers as you want to play 55 in early, but if you usually were that's an ok preflop call. Postflop I can see taking a stab at it on the flop. And without position you gave up on turn, I like that. River I can KIND of see since he checked turn behind you, but I'd rather check/call at this point if you're not going to fold to a river bet. Let him try to "bluff" if he had nothing. Betting allows him to raise. River play there isn't clear cut though, because of the turn.65o in sb: if you're going to play this generally raise preflop. Betting out is fine as a semi-bluff, though obviously mostly bluff with a gutshot. Calling the raise is ok off implied, and you dumped on turn, all fine.KK hand in late: Yeah you really shouldn't limp, though I hear you if you _had_ been playing on overly tight tables, but people expect CO to raise first in, if they're going to defend they're going to defend, but don't get somebody a cheapo shot with crap or Arag. Ballsy play on the river as the guy was acting like he had trips the whole way, though I guess few party-ers are that aggressive early with trips. I am but most aren't.QQ hand: I wouldn't bother capping flop, see what turn brings and raise there if you want. I don't like your raise on river personally, but obviously you read yourself as best still. Judgement call. It's just the guy still open bet turn after your cap, which if he isn't a crazy play tends to mean TT, KK, AA or set. You only beat one of those likely hands. As far as usually being ahead, people usually call call call at that limit, not 3bet into you and still open bet turn if they don't have really good stuff. But I haven't played .5/1 recently on party, so shrug.33 hand in UTG: Again, after looking at a lot of these hand histories you simply aren't getting enough limpers per flop on average to limp a PP that small UTG. You really want at least 2-3 coming in after you, I don't necessarily see that enough to do 33 UTG, but I'm only seeing some of your hands I think.55 hand in UTG: Same kinda thing as 33. Once you're in the hand, I would have open bet the flop of 944 personally, putting the raiser likely on overcards, but maybe not with 3 others total in the pot. With only 2 others I probably would figuring it'd come down to me and preflop raiser. Good but obvious dump on the turn.83o in BB: On the flop I would have open bet your 1 card open ended straight in the unraised preflop pot. I don't like your turn call. It was going to be HU and you're getting 3.5 to call 1 on a paired board on a 5:1 draw. Your possible implied odds are kinda trashed by the board already being paired imo. Lots of people who flopped a set would have checked this flop to slowplay. It's simply not worth it, fold the turn.A2o in BB where you flopped bottom pair and nut flush draw: I would have bet out on the flop to see where I stand. Beyond that your postflop play was ok. You're likely seeing the river on this one, shrug.KJo in mid: No, I don't think raising with KJo in mid vs 1 limper is correct really, since you're in mid in fact I'd probably fold not even limp. If you were two spots later I'm more ok with your play. I'm fine with betting the flop, either lay down vs the raise on the flop since the guy "obviously has an ace" after coldcalling preflop and raising you on the flop, or on the turn without two pair/trips.QJo in early mid: This is a preflop fold imo. Oh it's down to 7handed this hand, ok maybe a limp then. JTo in BB in a blind battle: Preflop it's fine, though if he's doing it everytime you might 3bet here. Postflop you need to see if he has the ace, I would raise with midpair and see what happens, blind battles are different. I really, really, wouldn't bother betting river. If he was bluffing the entire way he won't call, if he wasn't I don't know what you beat. I mean he might have the pair of 5s or maybe 99, but I don't see the point in betting this river.AKo in sb: Preflop you're good, he looks to be on a steal. Flop bet is obvious, his coolcall kinda sucks, usually a preflop raiser will raise if he doesn't have anything (if he doesn't fold) on the flop. Still betting on the turn is ok. River, I really don't see why you call a reraise after he's cool-called the entire way, you have only A high. The pot is large, but what do you beat that he is raising on the river? It's different if you know it's a tricky player, but if he's normal you will not win here very often.AJo hand: Your postflop is tolerable here, he never showed any strength. He could have some improbable draw on the flop he will fold on the turn with. But he also could have what he did have, a 9. Most people I play with will raise K9o on that flop. Can't do a lot on this hand.

[implied odds or me just being a fish?]

Ok, going with your extended definition I don't think its a good call.The pot odds are just over 4-1 and probably closer to 5-1 with overflushes and redraws clouding your outs.So 1 time in 5 you win the hand and it puts you in a good position to play on for the pay outs - but it doesn't guarentee anything, you have a lot of work still ahead of you.The other 4 times your out.With folding 5 out of those 5 times your still in with workable, albeit small stack, but by no means out of the running.I think a good player would have better returns with 5 shots from a smaller stack than 1 shot with a large one unless it was a winner takes all scenario.

It's allin on the flop, he's 2:1 against making his flush, not 4:1, though your point about being against a set or potential overflush is valid to want a bit more than the normal odds of hitting a flush over two cards.Your point of not risking your whole stack on a draw is utterly valid, but he's already showed his proclivity for such risks I feel by check-raising half his stack on a semibluff.

[implied odds or me just being a fish?]

Yeah, your play was kinda overaggressive, but I can see trying what you did. And because of your (perhaps) overaggressive play, you do have correct pot odds to go for it.You should essentially know your overcards aren't good at this point, pure flush draw say you need basically 2:1. I say that because it's obviously going to be allin. You said he just about covered you, I'll say he does completely since you didn't give more info.That puts the pot at basically 3650(ish) by my count and you have to call 1500. If you deem your flush draw to be live you want 2:1, it's possible he has a set here, so you want a bit more odds than just 2:1, which you have.You can also view it from the point of view of not risking your tourney existence on a draw here, but I'm assuming it isn't very near the money anyway, so basically you trapped yourself into calling here. I feel your best move at THIS point is to call and hope you hit the flush. Which you did.*shrug*I don't mind your move conceptually really, it was possible he had AK or something he'd lay down. But you should learn what implied odds actually means as was pointed out. On another note you might to try not to risk half your stack on a check-raise semi-bluff, but whatever floats your boat.Just realize your approach to multis (if this is typical of your play) will be very high variance.

[party poker sent me 50$?]

damn I didnt get anything So its some kind of special promotion?

As others have said, they tend to do this random 50 when you used to do real money for a while, then quit playing at party (like empty or near empty account balance). So to get you to play there again they'll randomly give you 50 bucks.If you never stopped playing at party you won't get the random 50. But you will have been able to get the reload bonuses they offer just about every month. Shrug.

[mult-tabling]

UB has a mini table view that makes it very easy to stack 4 tables w/ no overlap on a standard size monitor.

Very true. Some european site has a kinda built in multitabling thing too. UB and that site make monitor space not an issue, which is nice.

[Your first ROYAL FLUSH and how it went...]

Royal flush, what's one of those then? :wink: I've been playing for 3 years, and not a single one. Many royal draws, but that's as far as it goes. My friend who I taught to play poker hit one on his first night at a penny table at UB :cry: Hellmuth has only ever had 2 royals, and look how long he's been playing poker for.My time will come- Mark

Boy this thread is old, hah.As far as Hellmuth only have 2, that's somewhat because he mainly plays NL tourneys. You can't chase as much in A) NL games and B) tourneys.I've had about 5 royals in less than a year of online limit play. And like 8 SFs. Obviously you also get more hands in online.[edit]Oh after reading the rest of the posts, I didn't know we were counting Omaha. I have like 1-2 more royal and 2 more SFs there, and 1 more SF in stud. :)If you play thousands of hands a week they come after a while. And you'll get them a lot more in limit because you're able to chase.

[psychological warfare]

I mostly try to fly under the radar, and let stuff happen around me I play mostly low-limit online, so in general I dont think any of that is necessary.Rog

Many people play that style - but I prefer to use all the weapons at my disposal. I know Daniel likes to chat it up with opponents at a table, and learn all kinds of things off the reads he gets from their answers. Also, Daniel has often used techniques to force people to fold when they had the superior hand. So aren't you limiting yourself to 'playing the cards' instead of playing the players?Dev

Laugh. By playing online you're "limiting" yourself to largely playing the cards. At least in limit. In NL not so much, but you can't have the same degree of "tells" to go off of, or the same ability to give off false reads to others.I mean poker, online or not, is a hell of a lot more than JUST the cards you're dealt. But I think you're overstating the importance of a few potential tools for online play, shrug. Just my take on it.None of it can HURT you, so if you want to try them out and gain some benefit, go for it. I have all kinds of friends that do the measured pauses in NL tourneys, for a variety of reasons. They try to show that they seriously think about calling in blinds vs steals, and all kinds of other crap. Another big ones they use is when they have a near lock, they think a good while before betting if an overcard comes on the turn/river so it looks like they're scared of the card, and they want the other guy to raise on a bluff or whatnot.The list goes on and on. They swear by it, and some of it probably works a bit. I just can't see bothering for online. To me it mostly only makes sense for NL tourneys for online, and even then I don't bother, but I know a lot of people who do.

[mult-tabling]

Yeah a lot of what the other guy said above me.If you multi-table you do have to play a lot more ABC even if not JUST that. You do tend to have to be tighter than your normal preference, unless you're already crazytight. Most people do have to work their way slowly up to 4. Some people are naturals, but I did have to slowly add 1 table at a time. I spent months on just 1, then a long time on 2, and so on up to 4 now.My advice for multitabling: Make SURE you have enough monitor space for all your tables with no overlap. This usually means 1600/1200 if you want to do 3/4 ever. That is unless you have 2 monitors, then you have a lot more leeway. Other big thing is use Playerview or GT+ which give you realtime (just about) stats on players at your tables so even though you can't "watch" them closely, you can see how loose/tight and aggressive they are. You do use a more ABC approach when multitabling as I said above. I went from a rather loose 27 vp$ip to probably 22-23 now. As far as your last question, as I said, Playerview or GT+. Both are addons to tracker and give stats out of your tracker database on people on the table itself.It's obviously possible to do without the live-stats, I did for months of multitabling, but it's SO much easier when I decided to try using Playerview.

[pocket jacks]

I'd have released on the turn. Perhaps not if it was HU but you still have people behind you. The guy betting plays like he has A7, A8, or perhaps a nut flush draw and turned top pair. The fact that it's still multiway on turn makes it (to me) an easy fold. You have a possible made straight, a straight draw, a flush draw, and now an ace on the board. Time to run imo.

[question about moving limits]

Yeah, if that's all of your poker bankroll, for .25/.5 you should have between 100-150, 200-300 BB. And most people think it's more the 300 BB. If you have money from a normal job and poker is just fun, you don't have to stick to it quite as hard, but playing within your theoretical bankroll is still always best. Not move up limits when you have 1-2 days in a row running hot.Once you move up in limits, you can get away with only having 150-200 BB in the new limit, _IF_ you are willing to move back down to the prior limit if you lose 50-75 BB at the new limit. It's really all about what risk you feel like taking. The more BB you have, the less likely your risk of busting out is. 300 BB is relatively safe, I can't remember the supposed percents, but it is slightly different for everybody. This is because everybody's standard deviation is different. Mine is higher than most of my personal online friends.

[playing with chips during online play]

sometimes, not all the time, mostly i just eat & smoke cigs while i play online

Yeah, from what I hear from lots of people I know, the thread poster isn't weird at all. That's supposed to be quite normal. I'm kinda like AceOfSpaiDs though. I basically just smoke and whatnot, like a chimney. I didnt play ANY live until I'd already played a lot online, and while I do have a set of chips like 5 feet behind me in the corner, I just never got into the habit of doing any chiptricks or riffling them.Maybe I'll have to so I can look "cool" when I do more live. :)And I know that's not why most of you do it, I'm just saying that's why I'd _start_ doing it, hah.

[saying "nice hand"]

The thing is, few people say nh ever when there was a nice play. They tend to say it for anything they think is a "nice hand". Which can mean anything from two pair or better to a straight or better usually. They don't care if you hit a runner runner backdoor straight or whatever ridiculous hand, if the end hand is a "nice hand" in their mind, they are gonna say it. Or even vnh!I mean come on Aseem! He had nut flush! :twisted: But yeah, I've gotten irritated occasionally by other people saying "vnh" or "nh" to a fish who sucked out hard, but usually just internally irritated.I had your classic great suckout yesterday. Very standard stuff, very annoying hah.I have AKo, raise preflop from early, 3 coldcallers and both blinds call. Good stuff lemme tell you. Flop is A25, 2 clubs. Blinds check, I bet out, and a strange thing happens. Every single person but like 1 of the coldcallers folds and he flat calls. Turn is offsuit Q. I bet, he calls. River is an offsuit 9. I go for an obvious value bet, get raised. I'm like thinking "joy", A9 is it? Oh no, he had a very awesome 99 and was chasing a 2 outer.That or he believed he had KJo or 77 or something.

[tornto life article on daniel]

The one thing I didn't like about the article was on page 3 when the author brought up Daniel's comments about Annie Duke:

“I can’t stand that woman,” he seethes. “Egotistical and overrated, in a nutshell.”

Other than that, it was a good article.

I agree. In the same article, the journalist describes Daniel's ego as "canyon-sized." So what he means by "egotistical," new smear word, I dunno. And to say Annie Duke is overrated is absolutely ridiculous and very laughable. She just happens to be a measly 15th on the all-time money list. :roll:

Yeah, it definitely includes her 2 mil cash there, which is basically the bulk of all her tourney winnings (not to say she hasn't cashed other times, the link you gave clearly shows many other things, but they're a candle in the bonfire compared to 2 mil from the one event). She's very obviously a good player in the grand scheme of things, but everybody's entitled to their opnions, including DN's about her. You guys surely know some history and that there used to be horrendous bad blood between the two?Or do you? Anyway, regardless, him saying a phrase like that is nothing compared to yesteryear. They're very polite these days compared to past times.

[best and worst bob dylan song (album)]

Well, best album, hands down, Blood On The Tracks.

Hmm, that's right up there for my favs, though I think I like Desire slightly more. But yeah, from everything I've read most people seem to agree with you.

[best and worst bob dylan song (album)]

Wow, nice to see some Dylan fans. I'm rather a newcomer. A polled some friends years ago as to a few of their favorite songs and one gave me a Dylan song. I really liked it but never got around to getting more until about 6-9 months ago. Then I went crazy. I have like 12 albums or something now.So some of my current favs:Desolation Row (this is probably my overall total favorite, nobody else even mentioned it at all, I _LOVE_ the lyrics, anybody else even like this one?Hurricane (I didn't know a lot of the facts are false in this, another poster said that, any good webpages that tell more of the "true story" then?)Tangled Up In BlueIdiot WindMr. Tambourine ManJoeyLily, Rosemary and the Jack Of Hearts (Ok, this isn't a true favorite, but it's amusing and mentions cards!)I saved what Theresa said, I'll check out some of the songs she mentioned.

[tournament dollars]

No question to it -- Play the big tourney.

Hah, I dunno about no question. If you don't have a large roll, do you go for a one shot deal and try to score huge, or do you play in a large number of $10-$50 or even $100 events? Sure the big one shot deal seems to have more glory, but if you miss you're back to your tiny roll and scrounging.There's certainly a question, though I can see people wanting to do the big tourney. /shrug

[tornto life article on daniel]

That was an interesting article, all of it. It wasn't MUCH I hadn't read before, but a few of the quotes were interesting. The slant the reporter gave was also interesting. I do wonder if DN knew it was going to be written quite like that.

[why can't i get one?]

SorryFugu's idea of shorthanded SnGs sounded like a good one. But it doesn't sound overall like you're playing at all bad or suboptimally, from what you've said, in tourneys. Depending on how much you're calling draws anyway. As others said semi-bluffing them is better, and the one example you gave, with a nut flush draw AND mid pair, you're at least equal to most holdings there. In the exact one you gave you're like 50.1 favorite, haha. That "draw" example you gave was an extremely strong one for you. Plus you did semi-bluff that one, you just didn't semi-bluff allin. :)Actually cashing first takes some time sometimes. A lot of the end comes down to luck. I got a freakin' 3rd myself today. I was bigstack for a lot of the final table, but when we got down to final 6, this other guy had busted like 7/8 and he got huge and kept pressing really hard. I got to final 3, but got into a nasty tangle with bigstack who drew out on me.It was PLO8/b though, that's my new "fun" game I'm playing.

[is an hour long enough ... ?]

I sometimes only do 2 to 2.5 hour sessions when 4-tabling. When I only did 1 or 2 tables I'd put in at least 5-6 hours, but sometimes I feel drained enough after 2-3 hours. I mean you really are getting a lot of hands in.I like to put in more like 4 or more, but *shrug*.[edit]Like sometimes I have a great 1 hour start and am up like 30-40BB, but I still try to put in at least 1-2 more hours past that. It just seems so hit and run-ish to stop after just that. Like I should try to earn even more, I'm obviously playing well you'd assume, why not keep it up a bit.

[recent tourney hand]

Dude, come on. Are you trying to tell me one size fits all? I mean in Harrington's book which I just started (because of all the rave reviews) I've already read that he says typically 3ish, but sometimes as low as 2x and sometimes as high as 5x. For example I tend to raise higher if there is a limper, since they usually will call a normal 3x. I mean basically if you have something like QQ/JJ that you don't mind at all taking down preflop (when blinds are huge). Also I'd do this if I'm stealing too, since you try to play the same regardless preflop as to not give stuff away.I just dislike people saying you have to do an exact action, every time. It's not like you can't vary or SHOULDN'T ever vary. The reason I like poker so much is that there isn't always one single best or only answer.

You cant raise 5xBB ESPECIALLY when you have AK, maybe <AYBE with a 4 2 but if your opponent does not have apremium hand you will not be payed off

I didn't read the forum for a bit, sorry to respond to this late, but I saw the thread again when somebody posted.No you don't vary your bet totally off what hand you have, but you can and should vary it at times. As far as never raising 5x (with AK) because you have AK and want to be paid off... I dunno about that. You're 66 percent chance to miss the flop anyway, and blinds were a solid size, what's so wrong with taking it down now? I like giving people the wrong idea by my bets as to what I have anyway. You can often give people the wrong idea by slightly overbetting or underbetting. They think you're weak when you're strong, and vice versa. I've even occasionally gone allin in late-mid with AA because it looks fishy like I don't want to be called. And I've been called a reasonable amount by co/button or a blind who has like AJ or a mid to semi-high PP. I'm talking online tourneys of course. These is obviously an extreme example and not exactly what we were talking about, but I wanted to put it forth as another type of misdirection in raises/bets.

[worst fold youve made?]

My worst fold was at a casino, when I read a player for something stronger than he had. 5/10 NL, stacks about even at 500 a piece.(full table) I have QQ right before the button. everyone folds to me, i raise to 30, button folds, sb folds, bb calls. Flop comes AQ3. BB checks, i bet 40, bb reraises to 100, i reraise to 200, button calls. Turn comes A, button moves all in, I fold. I thought button had at least 2 pair on the flop, and after the ugly Ace turn, the only hand i could beat was 3/3. He ended up having A10...Thats my worst fold.Those folds you guys posted, you guys folded K10s and 4/4, not quads and straight flushes. I folded a boat. Its where you fold it that counts. Poker is about numbers and probability, any hand can hit a straight flush, they just dont have odds to.

Yeah I utterly agree with your final paragraph. Talking about hands you would have had when you intelligently folded preflop is kind of pointless. How many times can you fold 72o and see the flop of 772 or 22J. Those don't mean a lot.I have friends that act all bitter when they would have flopped something strong after folding trash preflop, it's like who cares? I tend to forget what I had preflop and just watch the hand for the way others play it.