Volume26
-
Content Count
23 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Calendar
Posts posted by Volume26
-
-
Patrik can have a wide range of hands there also.Daniel... no offense bro and you know I love you.. but you have 100k friggen behind.. there is no way calling 18k MORE is profitable if you have 100k behind.. I consider PA to be one of the best all around players in the world and I think if you are calling 20 percent of your stack off preflop against one of the best that is straight spew.. obv if you both have 2 million behind I wouldnt even be questioning your play... notice how I said the original raise was fine....but calling off 20 percent of your stack against a top player with no implied odds CANT be profitable with 5-3o.. at best you can hope he has AK.. and even then you cant expect to outplay him post flop because you arent deep enough. -
Uhm cause he was a total maniac AND had already 3bet with a flush draw. The guy has a wide range obviously.These days at this level, IF you're not willing to make the call Daniel did you'll never ever have a chance of winning a tournament.And I don't agree with that at all. Why would he 3-bet all in with the nut flush draw, but not top pair/twopair/set hands? I've been nothing but respectful. I don't get snippy until the tards come out of the woodwork. -
Well to be precise Cassidy is a LIMIT holdem specialist. Brian's best game is no limit.
-
LOL no and not to disrespect Daniel who is a great player but Brian would definitely have the edge in both nlhe and plo be it online or live.No shame in that of course since there is only a small handful of players where there is a chance even that this wouldn't be the case.I don't think DN would be too much of a favourite in a hu match vs Brian. I would assume Brian has the edge in PLO and probably in NLHE, although they're both excellent (obv). DN would probs have the edge in NLHE live -
Yes CLEARLY Mr Sigmund FreudTBF, I'm not saying it does, but it clearly shows JJ showing his distaste for Ivey's actions, and indeed Ivey looking uncomfortable at the line of the discussion.
I just read Harry's posts as well and I don't really see him taking anybody's side.
-
fatshaft is one of the biggest fools i've ever come across. fact.
-
Hahahahaha either you're very stupid or incredibly naive. My god you really do not think that this was golf gambling. Why do you think they were negotiating?? Ram himself goes into great detail. Goodwin talks about it in his blog. Please get real. If this wasn't golf gambling nothing is. Not even Ram or Goowin would claim it wasn't.Really I can't believe I even have to argue this.Yes we know YOU are not talking about golf, however Marc and Ram have made it clear that they were. That is the point, like I say.
What are you talking about? Are you unable to read? I said there was no such thing as an honest handicap and that it's something that's open for debate. IN GOLF GAMBLING...obviouslyAgain you have failed to answer my point about handicaps, I can assume that you have no idea how factually erroneous your statement on handicaps was then? -
god how can you argue with someone who can't even grasp that golf gambling exists?it's in the world that you refuse to understand that this is the case. for the billionth time, i'm not talking about golf.Again from earlier, you failed to answer my question, in fact answered a question I didn't ask. I am I right to assume you do not under stand golf handicaps from the following?There are no established handicaps. In this world they have no significance. If someone were to pull out a forged handicap card, they’d get laughed off the tee. No one would believe them. Games are made on the basis of negotiation. This is fully a part of the game, perhaps the most important one. Negotiations are made on the basis of past experience and gathered intelligence. The more diligent you are in gathering intelligence, the better chance you have of getting the best of the negotiations. Lying is part of the negotiation process. Just as bluffing is in poker. When my group meets before playing, we all tells our lies, fake our pains, etc, laugh about it and then get on with the real talks. For the most part, our games are already set from previous experience and adjustments. This is a matter of necessity, because otherwise we might never tee off. However, there are usually some team bets or other odd wagers negotiated to make it more interesting. If you are out-negotiated, you accept it and go on.. -
quoting blair rodman hereWell, I disagree. If Phil lied, then that's not negotiation. If I lie, I can get anyone to do anything. Second, if Phil lied first, then Ram has the right to lie and not pay even though they have this bet.Games are made on the basis of negotiation. This is fully a part of the game, perhaps the most important one. Negotiations are made on the basis of past experience and gathered intelligence. The more diligent you are in gathering intelligence, the better chance you have of getting the best of the negotiations. Lying is part of the negotiation process. Just as bluffing is in poker.Bluffing is basically lying. Does this mean that all poker players are liars away from the table? Of course not—some may be, some not. Is someone who lies in a golf negotiation in the gambling world a liar otherwise? No, he’s simply playing the game by the rules. -
whatever golf gambling is? jesus no wonder you don't get it, it's what they were doing. it's what they HAD ALREADY been doing. are you seriously claiming they weren't golf gambling. previously or this time around??Like I say, despite ignoring what I refered to in your previous post about handicaps, and I assume as you ignored the question I was right, the term for betting Golf Gambling, whatever that is (I take it you read Blair Rodman's post on LVA to come up with the term?) is not what these guys had historically played.Ivey has cheated -
once again and you just dont seem to get it...THIS IS NOT GOLF. It's gambling. It's betting. It's props. Golf is merely the vehicle used. Everything, including the rules must be negotiated beforehand. Ram clearly lost that negotiation but that's part of the game (and once again, no not the game of golf. GOLF GAMBLING).and from these two comments, I can only assume you have never been near a golf course in your life -
there is no such thing as an honest handicap. a handicap is an approximation and open for debate. Ram was negotiating his handicap up front. thats how it works. he simply lost the negotiation. he was hustled. not cheated. for an example casinos are hustlers, the best hustlers in the world but they are not cheaters. they offer you a bad deal, but they keep the terms of that deal.It is quite obviously cheating, but you're right, Ivey is certainly no golfer. -
it's not cheating and it's not golf.get a cluewhat nonsense. So cheating at golf has gone on for decades so it's okay? Cheating at golf is pretty rare, and certainly for these sums of money, unforgiveable. -
what many of the people not familiar with golf gambling fail to understand is that this is NOT golf, it is GOLF GAMBLING. Everything including rules, handicap etc must be negotiated beforehand. Ram clearly lost that negotiation but that's all part of the game.
-
what many of the people not golf gambling fail to understand that is that this is not golf, it is golf gambling. Everything including rules, handicap etc must be negotiated beforehand. Ram clearly lost that negotiation but that's all part of the game.I was curious to know whether daniel felt phil lying or at least not fully disclosing his handicap meant he cheated in respect to the rules of golf, ignoring any hustling or clever cons or whatever. I can see a very very good arguement for phil having just broken the rules of golf in as much as way as if he used an illegal ball. Much of the discussion has been about ram not paying phil if indeed he cheated, i wuold argue that if phil cheated ram going by golfing rules he loses the match and should pay ram the full amount! Thoughts? -
Someone asked Ivey about it tonight on FT and his reply was: "It's taken care of"
-
Blair Rodman wrote some very insightful posts about it on 2+2, that certainly helped me understand the whole thing a lot better, when the rumor of this bet first came up a few months ago:
andI’ve been golf gambling for over 20 years. In fact, it’s my favorite form of gambling. I learned early on that there’s a big difference between golfing gamblers and regular golfers.Golf as played by normal people is a genteel sport set apart from most by its’ traditions of honesty and good sportsmanship. Golf to gamblers is simply another medium in which to try to get an advantage over your opponents. Standard protocols of normal golf have nothing to do with golf gambling. However, there are some protocols that apply to golf gambling.The first thing I learned about golf gambling is that every experienced golf gambler lies about his abilities. This is part of the game! If you ask a group of golf gamblers how they are playing, virtually every one is going to say he hasn’t been playing, various body parts hurt, his game is off, etc. This is SOP! If you don’t understand this, or refuse to play that game, you are setting yourself up for a big fall. It’s not lying in this context, just as bluffing in poker isn’t lying in the traditional sense. It is within the context of the game. Once all the [censored]is out of the way, you can get down to real negotiations. Often in big money matches the negotiations fall flat and there’s no game. No big deal. I’ve been on the first tee many times when the game falls apart.If this story is true, Phil simply used an age-old tactic in golf gambling. If you’re playing better than anyone expects and are going to play for serious money, are you going to tell your opponents the truth? Not if you want to survive in the golf-gambling world. How did Phil know his opponents weren’t trying to do the same to him, not that it matters for the scope of this discussion.The bottom line is that Phil’s opponents are professional gamblers who got involved in a gambling game they seem to know little about. To get involved with someone in a golf match for serious money just on the basis of his word is dumb, and dumb people don’t survive in this milieu.To quote Marc Goodwin, assuming that post was really from him:“At the start of the game we said to Phil that as we haven't played for 3 months and he must have improved we need to adjust the handicaps. We could not agree and we were doomed to no game until Ram said "does Eric Lingdren still give you 10 shots" to which Phil replied yes!!On that piece of information we had a game. As we always ***** about handicaps throughout the match Phil suggested that we agree to play 18 holes with no adjustment and then adjust for the next series of games. We agreedThink about it. They knew Phil was improving rapidly. They were on the verge of not having a match because Phil wouldn’t agree to an adjustment. But, instead of walking away they wanted to play so badly that they believed Phil when he said EDog still gives him shots. Perhaps this is because, as Marc states, they had been getting the best of him in the past and wanted more. Then they agreed to a match for very big money and, to make it worse, agreed to Phil’s stipulation that there’d be no mid-round adjustment. Sorry guys, you lost the negotiation game, which is every bit as important in golf gambling as the playing of the game itself. Pay up, lesson learned.Some more thoughts on golf gambling:It seems to me that many posters in this thread are confusing golf with golf gambling. I love golf and would play without gambling—if no one would bet with me. However, not many gamblers feel that way. (Russ Hamilton, one of the best golf gamblers ever, told me a few years ago that a guy invited him to Augusta. Most golfers would kill for the chance. I asked when he (we) were going. He said, “I’m not going there with him. He won’t play for anything.) Very few gamblers keep actual handicaps. I keep a legitimate handicap and like to play amateur tournaments. However, that’s where the real cheaters are! There isn’t an understanding in amateur tournaments that sandbagging is part of the game. To keep an illegitimate handicap is cheating, period. This is because there’s no negotiation involved. The players are taken at their word. I lived in Palm Springs a few years ago and couldn’t believe the things I saw. Handicaps are designed so that a player should only play to his handicap about 20% of the time. To shoot 10 strokes below your handicap should happen less than 1 in 50,000 times. Yet, in almost every tournament I played there someone with a 20 handicap would shoot in the ‘70s in the last round. A lot of guys make a living cheating these tournaments. It got so bad that I quit playing them, unless I really wanted to play and then I pretty much accepted that I couldn’t win.The gamblers system is much more efficient. When I’d meet someone new at a course in Palm Springs, the standard conversation went like this:Stranger: “What’s your handicap?”Me: “About a 5.”Stranger: “Ok I’m a 15, so I’ll take 5 shots a side. Let's go.”Me; “No problem, unless you want to play for more than $5. Then we need to talk.”I would never play a stranger for any kind of serious money unless I had some reliable information about their game. I would also never get in a big match with someone who I knew might have improved rapidly unless I knew his story. Among gamblers this information is fairly easy to gather. I’ve never played golf with Ivey, but I know though the grapevine that he’s worked very hard on his game and has improved a lot. I’ve also heard that he was a live one when he first started playing the game, but now he’s almost impossible to match up with. If I had any doubts about someone’s current game, if I played him at all it would be for small stakes until I got a good feel for what I was up against.I have a fairly large group of players I gamble with. We all know each other’s games pretty well and generally have to resort to a system of adjusting after each match if someone wins or loses a certain amount of bets. For the most part the money goes back and forth and we play those matches because we like the game and the action. (The same thing happens in the big game with Doyle, Chip, Bobby Baldwin, occasionally Michael Jordan and a few others. Their back and forths are just bigger). Big money heads up matches are fairly rare among players who know each other’s games. However, this doesn’t mean there are never any big money decisions. A big part of the skill of golf gambling is handicapping different types of bets. If a game can be devised where both sides think they have an edge, you have the conditions for a big bet. If you sit around B&M poker tables, a lot of the conversation is about golf and setting up matches for the next day. Scrambles are popular these days. For instance, a negotiation might go like this:“Me and Jeff will scramble Richard, Jack, Greg and Greg. And Greg gets the blue tees.” (Greg and Greg are the same person, but he hits two shots)“OK but Greg only gets one putt.”“No, he needs two putts.”“Then he has to play the black tees.”“No he gets blue tees and two putts on 9 holes.”“Ok, I don’t like it but we’ll try it. How much…..”Often these kinds of matches will be negotiated for an emergency 9 or 18 after the early round of heads up matches.When poker players get the urge to enter the golf gambling world the pattern is generally the same. They are often very bad players who don’t understand the golf-gambling game and get taken advantage of by experienced gamblers. Eventually they figure out that something isn’t right and smarten up to the fact that they are being hustled. Then they either quit playing, or accept the realities and learn how to negotiate. If they stay in the game, eventually they figure out that they have an opportunity to recoup their losses and then some if they get better without their opponents’ knowledge and get games in which they have a big edge. Sound familiar? Getting this edge is a limited opportunity. The improvement curve in golf is sharp at the beginning but levels out as a player gets better. While it’s fairly easy to go from a 40 handicap to a 20. it’s much harder to go from a 10 to a 5. Even with a system of adjustment the bad player figures to win a lot of money as he improves. The smart gambler won’t fall for this, insisting or major adjustments as his opponent gets better.I’m not saying that the things I’ve described are good or bad( other than the handicap sandbagging), but they are the realities. I’m also not saying there’s no cheating in golf gambling. The rules of play are established, and breaking them is cheating. Since most gambling golfers don’t know the rules, a bastardized version is often used. The most extreme variation is called “gambler rules”. Under gamblers rules, you can’t touch your ball anywhere before you’re on the green without incurring a penalty. On a sprinkler head—hit it. Cart path—hit it. On top of a golf cart—you guessed it. Many players use grease (Vaseline or something like it) on their club face to straighten out shots. Occasionally this is specifically outlawed. Few players adhere to the 14-club rule. I knew one guy who carried about twelve woods and four puttersThere are people who will move balls, drop balls from their pocket, step on your ball, and lots of other things. Never take a partner you don’t trust, as you may get dumped. Just like in any gambling endeavor, you need to have your eyes wide open and your senses acute. The good thing about the gamblers’ system is that cheating players are usually exposed and shunned in games. That is, unless they are so bad that they are still live even with cheating.So what happens when the game is a fair matchup? That’s when the really talented golf gamblers step up. In my mind there are two kinds of successful golf gamblers (other than cheaters). Some will never play a game where they don’t have an edge off the first tee. Their whole game is in the negotiation and it’s fairly easy to play when there’s little pressure. Games often dry up for these players. The serious ones take to the road looking for new suckers. Read abut Titanic Thompson if you want to see a real hustler in action. The other type of successful player is the one who can play under pressure. Sure, he’ll take a good game if it comes up, but he relies more on his ability to outperform his opponent when it counts. Many players can’t make the shot when it counts. A player who can step up when it counts doesn’t need a lopsided game. In fact, against certain players he can take a bit the worst of the matchup and still be successful.Sorry this got long, but I love this game!There are no established handicaps. In this world they have no significance. If someone were to pull out a forged handicap card, they’d get laughed off the tee. No one would believe them. Games are made on the basis of negotiation. This is fully a part of the game, perhaps the most important one. Negotiations are made on the basis of past experience and gathered intelligence. The more diligent you are in gathering intelligence, the better chance you have of getting the best of the negotiations. Lying is part of the negotiation process. Just as bluffing is in poker. When my group meets before playing, we all tells our lies, fake our pains, etc, laugh about it and then get on with the real talks. For the most part, our games are already set from previous experience and adjustments. This is a matter of necessity, because otherwise we might never tee off. However, there are usually some team bets or other odd wagers negotiated to make it more interesting. If you are out-negotiated, you accept it and go on.For big money matches, the negotiation process is more involved, with more involved intelligence gathering. Asking opinions from other players who are respected for their match-handicapping ability is common. Often people not playing in the match will have action on one side or the other and will come out to sweat the match and maybe make more side bets. Watching respected handicappers closely as far as who they want to bet on which side can give clues as to the balance of the match.-There are established rules and protocols. They are just different from the other golf arenas. Often specific things, such as how to play a ball if it’s hit into the desert, are negotiated. The fact that practices such as using grease (which does help high handicappers, BTW) carrying more than 14 clubs, etc, are verboten in the other golf arenas means nothing. However, the rules that are establishes must be followed. (Occasionally the stipulation will be that actual golf rules are followed). To do differently is cheating, and cheaters will be ostracized. It’s silly to say that shooting someone or even moving a ball when it’s against the rules is fair game. Golf gambling isn’t golf per se. The game is just a means of gambling, just as a deck of cards or a pair of dice. The rules evolve to facilitate the gambling, but the rules of the day must be followed.This thread is a perfect example of people living in different worlds and not understanding others than their own. I think one of the things that is obvious from this thread is that people from outside the US are more traditional than Americans and have trouble fully comprehending the golf gambling arena as practiced by Americans. It’s possible that Ivey’s non-American victims didn’t fully understand which arena Phil was playing in. But, I think they did. Here’s a quote from Goodwin;"tomorrow we head off with Phil Ivey and Gus Hanson for a high stakes golf match with my partner in crime Ram Vaswani. One round of golf is worth a year’s winnings on the Europen Tour so, as you can imagine, some serious verbal takes place, with all sides trying to negotiate the best handicap - the reason we win is that Ram is different class at winding up Mr Ivey."To me it’s obvious that they simply lost the negotiation game. They made a bad game, and then compounded the mistake by agreeing to a no-adjustment stipulation, thereby not leaving themselves an out. To get mad is one thing. To not pay is another. I think they’ll pay. They are gamblers and there’s a code. Whether they’ll play with Phil again is another question.There is a real question of being able to move seamlessly from world to world without the lines becoming blurred. Very similar to poker. Bluffing is basically lying. Does this mean that all poker players are liars away from the table? Of course not—some may be, some not. Is someone who lies in a golf negotiation in the gambling world a liar otherwise? No, he’s simply playing the game by the rules. However, if he carried this over to the handicap golf arena, he’d be a liar and a cheat in that world.The motto of this story—know what game you are playing before you play it. -
you ruleSour grapes much? Bottom line is that Benyamine:1) is a better poker player than you2) is richer than you3) has a hotter girlfriend than youLast but not least, he's got sexy eyes, awesome hair, and massive strength in those big old forearms of his (which could probably squash you like a bug). So yeah, I'd definitely do him. And as far as his blackjack-playing girlfriend goes... not only would I hit it, I'd double down. LOL
-
After this hand I'm glad Gus won in the end. What a read and call in that situation only for Fricke to suck out.
An amazing call leads to another river suckoutNo Limit Hold 'emJan 19, 2007 / 04:20:47 EDTGus Hansen bet 425k and Jimmy Fricke called.Flop Jd10d10hFricke checkedHansen bet 500k and Fricke immediately moved all in for 4.3m. Hansen began talking to himself, "I could be up against that...I could be up against that...this could be the worst call ever...he could have that...he could have that...wow...wow...I call."Jimmy Fricke KdQcGus Hansen AhKhHansen made a huge call and is in the lead. A 9 is the only card that can help Fricke unless he makes runner-runner. The turn brought the 10s and a Q will also give Fricke the pot. The river 9c gave Fricke yet another river suck-out giving Fricke a straight. -
Omaha stats:
Benyamine is missing but he is up 283.234.
and his sick graph:
-
those are just limit holdem though.
-
You dont read numbers very well do you?Daniel is the exception, not the rule. Go to 2+2 and look in NVG. There are people there that datamine the high stakes games of FT 24/7. Gus is a huge loser in every game. He is actually up a little in all the games and with a good end of october and november so far, next time someone posts the stats, could be up MORE than just a little.Up until November he is up 263k in Hi/Lo. 10k in Plo and 80k in limit holdem (limit holdem is including november).
Chip Reese Rip
in General Poker Forum
Posted