When I am in a one or 2 table tournament, I usually have little to no problem making it to the point where when one or more people get eliminated I will be in the money. I usually Have a good chip count. Then the table gets ultra tight because everyone all of a sudden wants to finish in the money.
This is where I really struggle. If I have a big chips count I am usally okay. When everyone else has a simimalr chip count I finad a way to self destruct by chasing a bad hand or getting worn down and missing something. Once I make it in the money I relax and rarely do no worse than second.
I really need some advice on how to get over that hump more consistnetly.
Full Version: Making It To The Money
If your whole table tightens up, you can either do 1 of 2 things.
1) Tighten up yourself.
Play similar to them and wait for someone to get shortstacked and make a bad play and get out. The safe play.
or
2) Loosen up.
Raise when you're in position with stuff like J10 or 78 or the like. If he/she just calls you still got a decent drawing hand to catch the flop and if he/she checks, bet the flop.
Recently, I had about 4050 chips going into 4 handed and second had around 3300. I started raising a lot of hands when the blinds got up there (75/150 and on) and people were folding like madmen. I would pump it up to 450 and it would get folded around. If someone goes all in when you do this, just fold. By that time, people will have given you enough blinds to cover your 450 loss. However, I would recommend a more tighter image before you start do this.
I built it up to 7K by doing this and I was fortunate enough to pick up AK on the button and made my standard 450 raise and someone pushed all in with KJ. I called and won. Ended up going onto win the tournament.
Dont raise it when you've got something like 2-7 or 3-9 or something like that. Give yourself some outs to hit the flop if you do get called.
You put yourself much more at risk but you're also putting yourself in a much better spot to win the thing.
Try both and see how it works out and do what's ever most comfortable for you and your game. The absolute worst thing you can do is begin calling with inside straight draws like you are doing in an attempt to catch and bust someone.
1) Tighten up yourself.
Play similar to them and wait for someone to get shortstacked and make a bad play and get out. The safe play.
or
2) Loosen up.
Raise when you're in position with stuff like J10 or 78 or the like. If he/she just calls you still got a decent drawing hand to catch the flop and if he/she checks, bet the flop.
Recently, I had about 4050 chips going into 4 handed and second had around 3300. I started raising a lot of hands when the blinds got up there (75/150 and on) and people were folding like madmen. I would pump it up to 450 and it would get folded around. If someone goes all in when you do this, just fold. By that time, people will have given you enough blinds to cover your 450 loss. However, I would recommend a more tighter image before you start do this.
I built it up to 7K by doing this and I was fortunate enough to pick up AK on the button and made my standard 450 raise and someone pushed all in with KJ. I called and won. Ended up going onto win the tournament.
Dont raise it when you've got something like 2-7 or 3-9 or something like that. Give yourself some outs to hit the flop if you do get called.
You put yourself much more at risk but you're also putting yourself in a much better spot to win the thing.
Try both and see how it works out and do what's ever most comfortable for you and your game. The absolute worst thing you can do is begin calling with inside straight draws like you are doing in an attempt to catch and bust someone.
QUOTE (SilentButDeadly3 @ Friday, August 4th, 2006, 12:08 AM) 
If your whole table tightens up, you can either do 1 of 2 things.
1) Tighten up yourself.
Play similar to them and wait for someone to get shortstacked and make a bad play and get out. The safe play.
or
2) Loosen up.
Raise when you're in position with stuff like J10 or 78 or the like. If he/she just calls you still got a decent drawing hand to catch the flop and if he/she checks, bet the flop.
Recently, I had about 4050 chips going into 4 handed and second had around 3300. I started raising a lot of hands when the blinds got up there (75/150 and on) and people were folding like madmen. I would pump it up to 450 and it would get folded around. If someone goes all in when you do this, just fold. By that time, people will have given you enough blinds to cover your 450 loss. However, I would recommend a more tighter image before you start do this.
I built it up to 7K by doing this and I was fortunate enough to pick up AK on the button and made my standard 450 raise and someone pushed all in with KJ. I called and won. Ended up going onto win the tournament.
Dont raise it when you've got something like 2-7 or 3-9 or something like that. Give yourself some outs to hit the flop if you do get called.
You put yourself much more at risk but you're also putting yourself in a much better spot to win the thing.
Try both and see how it works out and do what's ever most comfortable for you and your game. The absolute worst thing you can do is begin calling with inside straight draws like you are doing in an attempt to catch and bust someone.
1) Tighten up yourself.
Play similar to them and wait for someone to get shortstacked and make a bad play and get out. The safe play.
or
2) Loosen up.
Raise when you're in position with stuff like J10 or 78 or the like. If he/she just calls you still got a decent drawing hand to catch the flop and if he/she checks, bet the flop.
Recently, I had about 4050 chips going into 4 handed and second had around 3300. I started raising a lot of hands when the blinds got up there (75/150 and on) and people were folding like madmen. I would pump it up to 450 and it would get folded around. If someone goes all in when you do this, just fold. By that time, people will have given you enough blinds to cover your 450 loss. However, I would recommend a more tighter image before you start do this.
I built it up to 7K by doing this and I was fortunate enough to pick up AK on the button and made my standard 450 raise and someone pushed all in with KJ. I called and won. Ended up going onto win the tournament.
Dont raise it when you've got something like 2-7 or 3-9 or something like that. Give yourself some outs to hit the flop if you do get called.
You put yourself much more at risk but you're also putting yourself in a much better spot to win the thing.
Try both and see how it works out and do what's ever most comfortable for you and your game. The absolute worst thing you can do is begin calling with inside straight draws like you are doing in an attempt to catch and bust someone.
This is an excellent reply, it is serious advice without putting down the OP. We need more of this in this forum.
-Bear
i agree, thank you SBD
Thanks for the pointers. I took what you suggested plus something that DN said in his Day one of the main event blog and tested it with play money. what DN did was play just about everyhand reguardless of what he had because the preflop play was so bad and it was cheap to play. I had alot of sucess. I need to play wit it a little more and get comfortable. I have been using the Phil Helmuths 10 top hands strategy and it works to a point but doen't really help when the blinds a getting up on you and time is running out. The 10 hand strategy is probably good if you have a dominant chip lead. I appreciate the thoughts.
My suggestion would be to continue playing the same game that you have been all tournament and not worry yourself over making the money. I play for first place and first place only. Obviously I won't be dissapointed with a money finish, but there is no point in playing a tournament for so long if you're just going to tighten up for suvivaly when you're on the bubble.
If the lowest prize catagory is too substantial to you to miss the money, you should play lower stakes.
As for how to play when everyone tightens up, I love to raise almost 50% of the hands in order to pick up the blinds. It is a great strategy as long as you're cautious. If you get re-raised, just dump the hand unless it's a monster. If you get called, you should still be careful because they are probably still on a huge hand. In this case, I would bet the flop, and if they continue to play, I would stop pushing for the hand.
Remember, if stealing the blinds is causing your stack to grow due to the tightness of the table, why would you take big risks chasing draws and playing coinflips. You have your way to make money for the time being, so stick to it!
If the lowest prize catagory is too substantial to you to miss the money, you should play lower stakes.
As for how to play when everyone tightens up, I love to raise almost 50% of the hands in order to pick up the blinds. It is a great strategy as long as you're cautious. If you get re-raised, just dump the hand unless it's a monster. If you get called, you should still be careful because they are probably still on a huge hand. In this case, I would bet the flop, and if they continue to play, I would stop pushing for the hand.
Remember, if stealing the blinds is causing your stack to grow due to the tightness of the table, why would you take big risks chasing draws and playing coinflips. You have your way to make money for the time being, so stick to it!
QUOTE (BearCanada @ Friday, August 4th, 2006, 12:15 AM)
This is an excellent reply, it is serious advice without putting down the OP. We need more of this in this forum.
-Bear
-Bear
I just wish to say being relatively new to this site and poker in general (only been playing for about 18 months) that that reply was very insightful and tips like that will help all of us do better.
So, thanks for the post and you will be seeing at lot of me on the forums
for now
Hey Ramram84,
Do you have a philosophy on what % you like to raise?.....I have been using 2-3 the large blind size, or if it's against someone that is short stacked and i have a higher chip count I will put them 50-60% of thier remaining chips....I really feel my betting is hurting me...I either over bet or not enough.....This has been a really good post...as a newbie I hope it stays like this.
The'winder
Do you have a philosophy on what % you like to raise?.....I have been using 2-3 the large blind size, or if it's against someone that is short stacked and i have a higher chip count I will put them 50-60% of thier remaining chips....I really feel my betting is hurting me...I either over bet or not enough.....This has been a really good post...as a newbie I hope it stays like this.
The'winder
It depends on what your goals are.
If you want to make the most amount of money with the least amount of risk, tighten up.
If you want to win, loosen up and be aggressive.
Keep in mind though, as you stated, most are now playing allot tighter. I wouldn't try any fancy bluffs other than the normal stab at the pot. If you get called, play VERY carefull unless you have got nuts or the power of God in your hands.
The main thing is not to stress over it. Just factor in the change that your opponents have made, and apply it to your current game. If your current game has worked so far, just input the new information.
My 2 cents.
If you want to make the most amount of money with the least amount of risk, tighten up.
If you want to win, loosen up and be aggressive.
Keep in mind though, as you stated, most are now playing allot tighter. I wouldn't try any fancy bluffs other than the normal stab at the pot. If you get called, play VERY carefull unless you have got nuts or the power of God in your hands.
The main thing is not to stress over it. Just factor in the change that your opponents have made, and apply it to your current game. If your current game has worked so far, just input the new information.
My 2 cents.
OP is talking about 1 and 2 table SnGs, I believe. In that case it is clearly an error to "play for first", and bubble play is where the money is made or lost.
Putting short stacks on calling/pushing ranges is probably the key skill to develop...after that its just math.
Putting short stacks on calling/pushing ranges is probably the key skill to develop...after that its just math.
I was talking about one and two table games....
QUOTE (xSIDEWINDERx @ Tuesday, August 8th, 2006, 10:27 AM)
Hey Ramram84,
Do you have a philosophy on what % you like to raise?.....I have been using 2-3 the large blind size, or if it's against someone that is short stacked and i have a higher chip count I will put them 50-60% of thier remaining chips....I really feel my betting is hurting me...I either over bet or not enough.....This has been a really good post...as a newbie I hope it stays like this.
The'winder
Do you have a philosophy on what % you like to raise?.....I have been using 2-3 the large blind size, or if it's against someone that is short stacked and i have a higher chip count I will put them 50-60% of thier remaining chips....I really feel my betting is hurting me...I either over bet or not enough.....This has been a really good post...as a newbie I hope it stays like this.
The'winder
Hey, you're already starting to notice stack sizes and bet sizes, so you're on the right track!
When i'm down to 4 or 5 people i like to start raising a lot of pots and trying to put pressure on my opponents. I feel that i'm pretty good playing anywhere from 6 handed down to heads up.
First thing you need to do is pay attention to where you are in the chip standing. If you have a low M (hope you know harrington on hold 'em, if you don't then you should, if you don't that's like 5x's the bb) you need to be looking to just to get all your chips in preflop. Pick a hand and put them in just trying to take down pots either without a call or by winning a showdown.
Say you win one of those and now you're back to avg/above avg stack. Or you've been an avg/above avg stack the whole time.... if the table is folding to lots of raises, i like to raise 2.5 to 3 times the bb... or whatever they're folding to. I've had tables that are 3 handed where min raises on the button will get the the other two to fold their blinds.
Lets say people are calling a lot of preflop raises, then it's time for a strategy change. I also do this to mix up my play. I like to limp on the button/late position and hope the pot isn't raised by the blinds... I'll do this with a lot of hands then if it's checked to me bet 1/2 the pot whether i hit the flop or not. You just need this to work 1 in 3 times to be a break even play. I'll try this for a little bit until i've either built up a stack or i'm back to a low M then i try to push again.
Basically you're already paying attention to people's stacks and your stack. So if you're a decent stack and there's a low stack (6x's the bb) in the big blind you don't want to be putting 2.5x's the bb raises out there with marginal hands like K3 and even *gasp* 76s (which so many people love). Make sure any hand you're putting a raise out there with that you're willing to call with. because if he comes over the top for the rest of his chips, you need to have a hand you can call with that can win a showdown. With a short stack in the bb and i'm button or sb i'm likely to just bet enough pf to put him all in w/ any Ace or two big cards or a pair... even if you're on the button and the small blind is yet to act a lot of times he'll fold any marginal hand or small pp if he sees that an opponent could be eliminated...
ok, i've rambled enough, hopefully something in there makes a little sense
in these situations, its all about preflop play.
QUOTE (copernicus @ Sunday, August 13th, 2006, 9:10 PM)
OP is talking about 1 and 2 table SnGs, I believe. In that case it is clearly an error to "play for first", and bubble play is where the money is made or lost.
Exactly.
You can play a limited number of hands and make it to the bubble in a 1 or 2 table SNG. I find I can do this at a 3 and 4 table SNG's as well at lower limits. But making it to the bubble is where you're going to pick up a large number of chips if you haven't already. Blinds are higher, and there should be a few people that tighten up and won't defend their blinds. Lean on them and you'll keep ahead of the blinds until you catch a hand that doubles you up.
someone said play like them. I would actually suggest the oppostie. If they are playing tight you can play aggressive and steal pots, if they are being aggressive play uber tight and trap them and bust em.
QUOTE (sdnuol @ Tuesday, August 15th, 2006, 9:08 AM)
someone said play like them. I would actually suggest the oppostie. If they are playing tight you can play aggressive and steal pots, if they are being aggressive play uber tight and trap them and bust em.
this is exactly what i do... and you're going to find that most people at these tables play it completely wrong. when people are playing too many hands they play too many hands. when people play too little they play too little.
whatever u do, be consistent. Consistency is the key to profit.
QUOTE (xxhibit @ Thursday, August 17th, 2006, 1:05 PM)
whatever u do, be consistent. Consistency is the key to profit.
yeah.
It's good to finish in the money consistently
well thought out.
my problem is I go for huge variance. I try to make money 4 times in a row and then miss money 6 times. Back and forth like that. But, if I was like, 2 out of 3 times in the money, consistently, I'd make more.
gotta go to the State Fair.
QUOTE (SilentButDeadly3 @ Friday, August 4th, 2006, 4:08 AM)
If your whole table tightens up, you can either do 1 of 2 things.
1) Tighten up yourself.
Play similar to them and wait for someone to get shortstacked and make a bad play and get out. The safe play.
or
2) Loosen up.
Raise when you're in position with stuff like J10 or 78 or the like. If he/she just calls you still got a decent drawing hand to catch the flop and if he/she checks, bet the flop.
Recently, I had about 4050 chips going into 4 handed and second had around 3300. I started raising a lot of hands when the blinds got up there (75/150 and on) and people were folding like madmen. I would pump it up to 450 and it would get folded around. If someone goes all in when you do this, just fold. By that time, people will have given you enough blinds to cover your 450 loss. However, I would recommend a more tighter image before you start do this.
I built it up to 7K by doing this and I was fortunate enough to pick up AK on the button and made my standard 450 raise and someone pushed all in with KJ. I called and won. Ended up going onto win the tournament.
Dont raise it when you've got something like 2-7 or 3-9 or something like that. Give yourself some outs to hit the flop if you do get called.
You put yourself much more at risk but you're also putting yourself in a much better spot to win the thing.
Try both and see how it works out and do what's ever most comfortable for you and your game. The absolute worst thing you can do is begin calling with inside straight draws like you are doing in an attempt to catch and bust someone.
1) Tighten up yourself.
Play similar to them and wait for someone to get shortstacked and make a bad play and get out. The safe play.
or
2) Loosen up.
Raise when you're in position with stuff like J10 or 78 or the like. If he/she just calls you still got a decent drawing hand to catch the flop and if he/she checks, bet the flop.
Recently, I had about 4050 chips going into 4 handed and second had around 3300. I started raising a lot of hands when the blinds got up there (75/150 and on) and people were folding like madmen. I would pump it up to 450 and it would get folded around. If someone goes all in when you do this, just fold. By that time, people will have given you enough blinds to cover your 450 loss. However, I would recommend a more tighter image before you start do this.
I built it up to 7K by doing this and I was fortunate enough to pick up AK on the button and made my standard 450 raise and someone pushed all in with KJ. I called and won. Ended up going onto win the tournament.
Dont raise it when you've got something like 2-7 or 3-9 or something like that. Give yourself some outs to hit the flop if you do get called.
You put yourself much more at risk but you're also putting yourself in a much better spot to win the thing.
Try both and see how it works out and do what's ever most comfortable for you and your game. The absolute worst thing you can do is begin calling with inside straight draws like you are doing in an attempt to catch and bust someone.
QUOTE (BearCanada @ Friday, August 4th, 2006, 4:15 AM)
This is an excellent reply, it is serious advice without putting down the OP. We need more of this in this forum.
-Bear
-Bear
When Players are Too Tight ... you Can Loosten up By Bluffing More
& ... When Player's are 2 Loose ... You Loosten up By Playing more Hands
tight pre-flop play is the key to cashing
To win you have to play great poker regardless of your cards
To win you have to play great poker regardless of your cards
QUOTE (MR_BIZKITZ @ Sunday, August 27th, 2006, 3:26 PM)
tight pre-flop play is the key to cashing
To win you have to play great poker regardless of your cards
To win you have to play great poker regardless of your cards
in 1-2 table tournies, bubble play is the key.
and maximizing the occassional big han you get early.
I don't think ultra tight is a key in and of itself
If you are down to the bubble, and the table tightens up how you should play depends on your stack in relation to your opponents. If your ranked in the money in terms of stack size and either had a sizeable lead over some one (one or more short stacks at the table) and you are 20 X BB + you can just play real tight a play to get to the money. Or, if you are in a bottle neck with many players haveing about the same size of the stack even with no one below
that group and no one is short stack you can grind it down for a while. If you get to the point were you are getting short stacked along with your other tight bunched stacks then you'll have to try to take down some pots more.
If you've got a big stack, in the money, and could easily grind down to the money, but aren't the big stack you can try to pick up chips to give your self a better chance to win. IF you have the big stack, and it's a legit big stack well over the middle and short ones, you can do what you want. I suggest when you find your self in this great, but dangerous position, you just play the same way you have been playing. It's worked for you so for to perfection. If you get a good price to try to knock some one out and have a nice hand take it. But you don't have to try and go get them. The blinds will do that for you. And be sure to recognize who is playing super tight, and who is just looking for a decent gamble to try and double up.
that group and no one is short stack you can grind it down for a while. If you get to the point were you are getting short stacked along with your other tight bunched stacks then you'll have to try to take down some pots more.
If you've got a big stack, in the money, and could easily grind down to the money, but aren't the big stack you can try to pick up chips to give your self a better chance to win. IF you have the big stack, and it's a legit big stack well over the middle and short ones, you can do what you want. I suggest when you find your self in this great, but dangerous position, you just play the same way you have been playing. It's worked for you so for to perfection. If you get a good price to try to knock some one out and have a nice hand take it. But you don't have to try and go get them. The blinds will do that for you. And be sure to recognize who is playing super tight, and who is just looking for a decent gamble to try and double up.
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