Background:

I'm not much of an omaha player. At all. A buddy and I entered a 40$ Hi/Lo pot limit split tourney to blow off some steam and goof around. And we argued about the following hand....
This is my FIRST hand at a new table. I've got about 1800 in chips. Nobody at the table has less than 1100.

I'm in the cutoff with KcKsTs8h


There are 4 limpers to me. I limp. Button folds. SB completes. BB raps.

(Is this alright? I was pretty sure putting a raise in here is just terrible, but figured limping in position with a mediocre holding is a fine with this many players. Not the point though...)

So we go to the flop 7 handed with 210 in the middle.

The flop is Kh 2c 4s

SB bets 30, and there are 4 calls to me... The pot is 360.

At this point, I don't know what to do. I decided to call the flop and planned on waiting for a good turn card.


The hand fascinated me, and I had a discussion with an equally well-versed-in-hold'em and equally clueless Omaha player about. We decided to see what some real pipe-swinging Omaha players thought.

So... thoughts? Flop or turn??

Wang

In PL Omaha you would raise to chase the low draws out, I don't know if its the same for limit, but raising is my gut instinct

Yep, raise here and get as much money in the pot as
you can, and as many people OUT of the pot as you can.

You have the best hand, but there are a TON of cards
out there that can really hurt this hand.
You have no low draws, and basically any low card that
comes is also going to put a straight draw out there.

Though you have top set, it's not as strong as you think.
Get money in there to protect it.

I know I'm fading tons of cards here, which is why I assumed- especially in a tournament situation, waiting for the turn would be best. I think I wanted the pot smaller in VERY LIKELY CASE THAT:

a) a HORRIBLE low card comes off (Ace, 3, 5, maybe 6), and I'm drawing to a board pair
an average low card comes off (maybe 6, 7, 8) and I'm getting free rolled by myriad hands

I feel like anyone with a good low draw and some combination of backdoor draws or wrap/wheel draws would be totally justified in calling a big bet on this flop. And I could be punished by any hand that connects on the turn.

By WAITING for the turn, I felt like I punish any prospective low draws or wrap draws for a big number of chips, and they'll be drawing slimmer. I think I'd be (slightly) more apt to start pumping the pot in a cash game than a tournament, but only because my tournament chips are so much more valuable compared to cash.

I dunno, someone tell me why this is wrong, because I'm sure it probably is

Wang

I see the point you're making.

Some, however (myself included) would say to
fold this pre-flop. You have no low at all and
4 high cards that really don't work with each
other. You have to absolutely KILL the flop to
take this any farther, and that doesn't happen
very often when everyone has 4 cards in their hand.

Given that we are in the hand though, I still pot
this on the flop.

I am a bad BAD Omaha (esp. Hi/Lo) player, and I did consider this. But it was a big multiway pot, and I think with the blinds still low and people playing terribly, I had an edge here. I think my preflop limp was just fine, given how poorly/loose/passive early the table had been playing.

But I'll consider it next time.

wang

Where's Smasharoo when you need him??

Just call the flop. You have a drawing hand here. You're drawing for blanks + twos and fours.

If the turn is favorable, pot it.

Happiness for correctness from one person!

I've got so much donkrust to work off on PLO...

I pot here. Only an A3, lower set would be likely to call, so that a player with a mediocre low will not be able to freeroll you in practice. You are in position and will be able to make a good decision on the turn.

I'm not a well versed omaha player either, but I would say seeing the flop with that hand for bottom dollar is going to be worthwhile. This is normally a betting marathon of a game and many times you won't see flops for less than a capped bet. In those instances I wouldn't try to limp I would fold, but you have position and the table is letting you see cheap, so that doesn't hurt you. Call for the flop is good.

Now you setted the flop and there is one hell of a nasty low looking at you. You must raise here. People are going to call it or fold it and if they stick around to try to catch you want there money in. Therefore the best decision is to pound this pot. Even if someone has a low draw with conterfeited cards, they are probably gonna check, but will they call a bet and raise? If they do you get value on your hand, if they don't you eliminated some competition and increase the chance that your high end will stand up.

While were at it, you must also pound the turn. You commited yourself to this hand once you flopped your king set, may as well play it.

I would also add that most players (no matter how tempted) will not play this kind of starting hand in this game for the sole reason that you cannot scoop a pot with this hand. By not playing these hands they avoid this hang tough decisions.

Los

See, I think this is untrue. I think a wide variety of hands, including something like wrap-low draws and random low hands (A56, etc) are going to come along as the second (or thirdish) caller.

The play was pretty poor, as it was the early stages, and I'd seen some very funky calls, which was a mild concern. If I pot it and get 2 or 3 callers (not unlikely), I'd better see a good turn card, or I'll be in rough shape.

Wang

My point is that you cannot let 4 opponents draw for their lows. If you eliminate 2 or 3 of them than the chance of a danger card scooping you is reduced.

don't wait for the turn. go back to before the flop and fold.

cards that are good: 2-4-9-10-J-Q-K. we have eighteen outs. and even if one of those comes on the turn the lows may have odds to draw at half or flush.

you may be putting your tournament life on the line hoping at best to scoop but the odds are you'll only get half.

which leads back to before we were put in this predicament.
prelop if we folded we would have to worry about all this stuff.

if the time machine is broken or the button mysteriously moved so you were in the big blind, you have two choices: if SB is extra aggressive and he'll re-raise with just A-3 i think you have to put in a raise that looks weak and hope that SB re-raises and then you can pot when it gets back to you.

the other choice (preferred) is potting it right there on the flop and hoping to take it down. i don't think theres any legitamate hand that has odds to call there. if you get called and the turn is a A-3 or 5 you may have to give up the hand. now, if you are called and an 8 comes on the turn you have a REALLY difficult decision. you'll have to call a pot sized bet and fold if the river is an A-3 or 5 or completes a flush. (unless its a spade flush)

that's why PLO8 is so profitable at low limits but boring at high ones where people know how to play. omahahaha is a game of drawing and in PLO8 you can make it so people don't have odds to draw.

but really playing KK10-8 is a way to lose ALOT of money at O8. raising with it is for billionares playing 2/4.