Antistuff's comments about the difficulty of beating these stakes on FT due to the high rake have inspired me to try this. I've been playing these stakes to clear bonus on FT so I'm going to see if it's profitable to take a super-nitty approach to these tables. Here's an outline of my strategery:

1) Only play hands with solid two-way potential unless the pot odds for a high-only or A2xx hand are irresistible

2) Only raise solid hands in position

3) Don't chase draws in marginal situations

4) Play cautious postflop with one-way hands or hands where my edge is very small

5) Drive hands postflop only when I have larger edges

Comments welcome. I'm going to track my performance here and post hands along the way.

Uneventful session overall. Here's a questionable hand from the night:

Full Tilt Pot-Limit Omaha Hi/Lo, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP1 ($7.70)
MP2 ($10.45)
MP3 ($15.15)
CO ($2)
Button ($13.45)
SB ($6.20)
Hero (BB) ($11.80)
UTG ($4.70)
UTG+1 ($1.90)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6, 8, 5, 10
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.10, 2 folds, CO checks, Button calls $0.10, SB calls $0.05, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.50) 6, 6, 9 (5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, CO checks, Button bets $0.25, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.25, MP1 calls $0.25, 1 fold

Turn: ($1.25) A (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, Button bets $0.10, Hero calls $0.10, 1 fold

River: ($1.45) 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $1.45, Hero calls $1.45

Total pot: $4.35 | Rake: $0.40

Check Smash for an omaha theory.

What's Smash?

gl. remember to fold the nut flush sometimes.

also don't push your big draws. draw to them when you can. having to do this will hurt you a lot. you're going to need to bluff a lot of missed rivers. if they check the river to you HU in this situation bet almost every time.

ive actually thought about this a lot for some reason it caught my interest a while ago. please post results, im interested in if it can be done.

This what like 5 years ago, but I assume this refers to Smash's super nitty positional philosophy?

I tried something like this and bled a lot of money I'm also hoping to see what comes of this.

Any thoughts on the hand I posted?

i probably bet or c/r the flop but i have no problem with how you played it.

that donk bet on the flop and donk-ten cent bet on the turn is swahili for "I have AAxx.. RAWR!".

I mean, he can show up with 78 here and think he's valuing river, but if that's the case, put him on your friends list.

The worst part about the ugly T65x type hands is you can make some insanely stellar versions of the second-best hand, and it's not even your fault cuz you see a free flop and stupidly cheap turn.

Seriously, how does he have anything other than AA and make that idiotic turn bet?

Tell me about it. This hand cost me almost $2 and it was a garbage BB special.

He actually had A6xx. The small turn bet was a bit difficult to interpret because players at this level will often throw out tiny bets with marginal hands when they're not sure of where they stand. Then I hit my boat on the river and had no choice but to call.

Thoughts on this one?

Full Tilt Pot-Limit Omaha Hi/Lo, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($6.05)
UTG+1 ($31.70)
MP1 ($19.30)
MP2 ($9.65)
Hero (CO) ($8.50)
Button ($10.90)
SB ($22.70)
BB ($9.85)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q, 3, A, 10
UTG calls $0.10, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.10, 1 fold, SB calls $0.05, BB checks

Flop: ($0.40) 7, 8, 9 (4 players)
SB bets $0.10, BB calls $0.10, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.10

Turn: ($0.70) K (3 players)
SB bets $0.10, BB raises to $1, Hero calls $1, SB calls $0.90 [2nd nut low draw and lots of outs to a nut high with the heart draw and straight draw, though the spade draw is non-nut]

River: ($3.70) 3 (3 players)
SB bets $0.80, BB raises to $6.10, Hero folds, SB calls $5.30

Total pot: $15.90 | Rake: $1.55

OK, 3 jacks and QT of hearts give you mortal nuts : 5 outs.

7 or 8 of hearts gives you nuts if no one boats up : 2 possible scoop outs.

4 hearts give you nut high, but a weaker low: 4 outs for 1/2 pot.

2 of hearts gives you at *least* 3 quarters. 1 out for 3/4 to full scoop

3 other twos gives you 1/4 to 1/2 of the pot: 3 outs for 1/4 to 1/2.

15 cards on the river give us a good chunk of this pot. So you've got roughly a 1 in 3 chance to pull it off, plus the implied odds of river betting. Your cost on the turn (providing SB doesnt raise behind you and simply calls) is about 3.7-1 (calling $1 to win $3.70.

Mathmatically you can make this call easy if you are fairly certain the SB was weak-leading with a monster and is planning on raising.

The real argument against calling is there is only 70 cents in the actual pot, so you will need huge implied odds to make the call worthwhile. Given the strong bet and weak pot-size and the need for implied odds to happen, I could justify laying this hand down. But calling is right there as well. Either play is solid. I'd feel better with some semblance of a made hand here, since if we are holding a king or two pair or something, we can bluff-catch. As it stands we are on a pure draw with no showdown value unless we connect. So 2/3 of the time we will be dumping on the river regardless of the action. Which reiterates why we *really* need to have implied odds to make this work.

all of cappy's math is wrong because the rake is TENPERCENT!!!!!!

I know there is the whole discussion going about the rake and playing nitty, but these are precisely the spots where I feel you have to raise it up preflop...IMO

You're almost willing me to fail...

By the way, how would you factor the rake into Cappy's calculations?

Jesus.

It's like when I first learned that Santa wasn't real.. I think I feel sick.. Yet another reason why I'm still eligible for all sign-up bonuses and rakebake on FT..

Take 10% out of the current pot.... so if you were getting 3.7-1 on the turn, you'd actually be getting like 3.3-1..

Lol.. and you'd have to slice 10% off of your implied odds too.. yikes.

i agree.



nah man, im rooting for you.

you can take the rake out on each street as long as you remember to put it back in. (ftp lets you bet the pot size as if the rake wasn't taken out yet).

clear the bonus and then bounce. the bonus+rakeback is a good deal.

That's the only reason I'm playing on FT now. I'm starting to get the itch to return to NLHE SnGs, and I've been missing 8-game on Stars, so I'm wondering if I'm even going to keep money on FT after my bonus period ends. You don't get rakeback for tourney fees, do you?

*Edit: just discovered that tourney fees are eligible for rakeback so maybe I'll continue to use FT for my NLHE SnGs and Stars for other games

Holy mother of hell do I hate this game.

Full Tilt Poker Game #9806480258: Table Washburn - $0.05/$0.10 - Pot Limit Omaha H/L - 21:49:29 ET - 2009/01/01
Seat 1: InDaMony ($0.90)
Seat 2: JLMeyer ($3.50)
Seat 3: alheocmo01 ($11.35)
Seat 4: JSN84 ($3.45)
Seat 5: Birts ($4.70)
Seat 6: verok55 ($1.70)
Seat 7: christa66 ($10.10)
Seat 8: carpet guys ($6.50)
Seat 9: jbreslin1 ($10.75)
InDaMony posts the small blind of $0.05
JLMeyer posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to jbreslin1 [Th Ad 8d 2s]
alheocmo01 raises to $0.35
JSN84 has 15 seconds left to act
JSN84 folds
Birts folds
verok55 folds
christa66 folds
carpet guys calls $0.35
jbreslin1 calls $0.35
InDaMony folds
JLMeyer folds
*** FLOP *** [Qs 3d 5h]
alheocmo01 bets $1.20
carpet guys folds
jbreslin1 calls $1.20
*** TURN *** [Qs 3d 5h] [5c]
alheocmo01 bets $0.90
jbreslin1 calls $0.90
*** RIVER *** [Qs 3d 5h 5c] [4h]
alheocmo01 bets $5.40
jbreslin1 calls $5.40
*** SHOW DOWN ***
alheocmo01 shows [5s 5d 2d Ac] four of a kind, Fives, for high and 5,4,3,2,A, for low
jbreslin1 shows [Th Ad 8d 2s] a straight, Five high, for high and 5,4,3,2,A, for low
alheocmo01 wins the high pot ($7.30) with four of a kind, Fives
alheocmo01 ties for the low pot ($3.65) with 5,4,3,2,A
jbreslin1 ties for the low pot ($3.65) with 5,4,3,2,A
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $16.20 | Rake $1.60
Board: [Qs 3d 5h 5c 4h]

Seat 3: alheocmo01 showed [5s 5d 2d Ac] and won ($10.95) with HI: four of a kind, Fives; LO: 5,4,3,2,A
Seat 9: jbreslin1 (button) showed [Th Ad 8d 2s] and won ($3.65) with HI: a straight, Five high; LO: 5,4,3,2,A

if you routinely call flops like that you have just found a huge leak in your game.

the only reason to call that flop is because you
1) have position
2) have the nut low draw
3) can use those two things as leverage to steal the pot on the turn or the river

you hit the perfect card to try to steal on the turn btw. other good cards are probably a nine, an ace, or a deuce. yes you would have been raising into the nuts, but when he repops you just fold (as in don't do this if you are going to price yourself in with a low draw).

against most players just fold that flop.

Yes, I am starting to realize that nitting it up also means not continuing past the flop unless I do flop a multi-way hand (I guess a gutshot to the nut low doesn't count). Especially since that was one of the few players I had a solid read on. Over 200+ hands that guy was playing around 10/7, which makes me look super-loose. I knew he was on a decent A2xx hand, so when I didn't pick up a diamond draw on the flop I knew I was playing to split the low half if I made it. Terrible on my part.

Taking into account the read on the player, would you still advocate trying to take it away on the turn? Or should that move be saved for a player with a wider raising range?

at gutshot to the nut low counts when it doesnt involve an ace in your hand

1) somebody else is unlikely to have the same one
2) you are more likely to get paid off

Arggg! Anything I could have done differently?

Full Tilt Pot-Limit Omaha Hi/Lo, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (SB) ($9.35)
BB ($1.15)
UTG ($10.45)
UTG+1 ($9.50)
MP1 ($10.70)
MP2 ($4.65)
MP3 ($3.70)
CO ($0.75)
Button ($4.80)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K, A, Q, 3
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.10, 2 folds, MP3 calls $0.10, 1 fold, Button calls $0.10, Hero calls $0.05, BB checks

Flop: ($0.50) 4, 8, 2 (5 players)
Hero bets $0.50, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.50, 2 folds

Turn: ($1.50) 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $1.50, Hero folds

Total pot: $1.50 | Rake: $0.15

^^^^^

Not folded turn, for one. Not checked turn... for two...

check-folding turn cards that don't blow up your skirt will cost you tons of money in the long run. Yeah, it only takes 2 cards to scoop there, but it's not overly likely he called a pot sized bet on the flop with 'em.

i would be happy to see a 3 there and bet the pot.

I'm confused, the 3 just counterfeited my low so my hand is now just a nut flush draw for half. Remember, this is micro stakes - I would not be at all surprised to see a player call that flop with A5xx. There's a big difference between cards "that don't blow up my skirt" and cards that significantly devalue my hand. And any hand he's calling that flop with he's not going to be folding the turn. Are you guys advocating leading the turn or check-calling?

lead.

if you are going to check you have to fold.

Please explain why I should be happy and willing to lead when the 3 falls.

A little update on my quest:

I may have to face the reality that I ****ing suck at this game. I just can't get a feel for it. The players at this level of play are so loose and unpredictable that I just never know where I stand. I can't seem to hit the cards I need so I'm constantly stuck in these marginal spots where I feel completely lost. This move over to FT has been a frickin' disaster.

#$#$%%%&^!!!! I've had it with these idiots. Why do they get rewarded for playing so terribly? Who limp-calls a raise with such garbage?!?!?!


Full Tilt Pot-Limit Omaha Hi/Lo, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP2 ($10.55)
MP3 ($2.10)
CO ($6.95)
Hero (Button) ($3.25)
SB ($4.05)
BB ($2)
UTG ($5.05)
UTG+1 ($2.05)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5, K, A, A
2 folds, MP2 calls $0.10, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, 1 fold, BB calls $0.20, MP2 calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.95) J, 8, 8 (3 players)
BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets $0.95, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.95

Turn: ($2.85) K (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero checks

River: ($2.85) 2 (2 players)
MP2 bets $0.10, Hero calls $0.10

MP2 shows [8h 5c 5h 6h] three of a kind, Eights, for high
Hero mucks hand
MP2 wins the pot ($2.75) with three of a kind, Eights
No low hand qualified

Total pot: $3.05 | Rake: $0.30

because that cards looks just as bad to your opponent as it does to you. he will fold well over 50% of the time.

you played this hand perfectly. he even made a huge mistake, he should have bet more on the river. when you have the trip 8s you will valuetown his aces and come out ahead.

I may switch over to 6-max and see if that's any better. I have a hard time seeing how this game can be profitable when you have 8 opponents, many of whom play literally 50% of the hands they're dealt, and most of the hand value comes postflop. At least in 6-max you can play a more effective positionally-aggressive game and don't have to worry about as many garbage hands hitting big flops and drawing out on you.

6max is much more aggresive and if you show a willingness to gamble early you can really nit it up and get paid of for the rest of the session IMO

yes, but the far snarkier and quicker answer is "Because he can't see your cards, duh!"

For your first couple 6max sessions, put tape over your hole cards. If only to drive home the fact the game is now no longer even remotely related to what cards you actually have in your hand.

Seriously though, start listening to that crazy voice in the back of your head that says "f*ck it, I'm betting/raising this". It's fun.

from your posts i do not think 6 max is for you.

O8 might not be for me but I'm not ready to give up yet.

What do you think of this one?

Full Tilt Pot-Limit Omaha Hi/Lo, $0.10 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($1.55)
SB ($1.95)
Hero (BB) ($7.65)
UTG ($9.90)
MP ($13.45)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5, 7, A, A
1 fold, MP calls $0.10, Button raises to $0.20, SB raises to $0.80, Hero calls $0.70, 1 fold, Button calls $0.60

Flop: ($2.50) 2, 6, J (3 players)
SB bets $1.15 (All-In), Hero calls $1.15, Button calls $0.75 (All-In)

Turn: ($5.55) 7 (3 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($5.55) 10 (3 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $5.55 | Rake: $0.55

even though it makes no difference to the amount the button has to call you should still raise and scare him away. most players won't realize it makes no difference.

Anti, considering the stack sizes of the two villains in this hand, what do you think about just putting them all in PF? Since he's pot committed to playing post flop no matter what comes, isn't it a huge negative freeroll to let both villains pop in almost half their stack and potentially bail for the rest if the flop isn't coming out their way? Or do you think the ability to push them out after the flop is attractive as well? I can't imagine either villain folding unless they have a complete whiff, which strengthens the PF 3bet argument.

I don't play a ton of pot limit, so I'm curious on your guys's thoughts on this.

I'm don't play much PL/NL anymore, but I would def reraise preflop here and try to get it heads up. As played yeah there is no way you r folding (shrug)

I'm not crazy about the idea of getting it in PF because I still need a favorable flop myself. Clearly the chances of hitting a set of Aces are reduced based on the PF action, so I'm looking for spades or hearts with low potential. I'd rather see a flop and give myself a chance to escape if I miss.

I think your aces alone are a big enough favorite with having two lo cards and both being suited if you get it heads up here you should be happy as hell to get it in and gamboooool

(me personally I wouldn't mind getting it in 3 way, but I do like to gamble )

I've heard you like the 3-way...

I'm not confident that I could have gotten it heads-up in this hand with a minraise and 3-bet in front, and very shallow stacks of both villains. If I 4-bet they both might just decide to get it all in with what they have left. I don't think getting both villains all in PF is a good outcome here.

LMFAO!!!! I think you have a good shot at it, but no guarantee by any means button only has $.20 in and you have the ability with the pot size to reraise enough where it is all in or nothing for him and if not I don't think getting both villains all in is maybe a "good" thing here, but it can't be too bad. If I knew their hands I would punch it in the old odds calculator and see what kind of equity u had (if u haven't already done this) As played I like that flop and would be willing to get it all in vs opponents who still had some left in their stack FWIW

Comments on this one? Small number of hands against villain but so far he was playing very loose passive.

Full Tilt Pot-Limit Omaha Hi/Lo, $0.10 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (MP) ($8.60)
Button ($4.30)
SB ($8.65)
BB ($3.95)
UTG ($3.45)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 2, K, 8, A
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.30, 2 folds, BB calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.65) 4, 2, 9 (2 players)
BB bets $0.10, Hero calls $0.10

Turn: ($0.85) A (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.85, BB calls $0.85

River: ($2.55) 3 (2 players)
BB bets $1.30, Hero folds

Total pot: $2.55 | Rake: $0.25

Okay, I need to seriously rethink what I'm doing. My bonus-clearing efforts at FT have been a complete waste of time. Despite clearing almost half my bonus so far, as well as receiving rakeback, I've made absolutely no profit because I've been consistently losing money at the games I've been playing for bonus-clearing purposes. There's no point playing these games to clear bonus if I'm losing money in the process. I'm most comfortable playing NLHE SnGs, but the low stakes ones are terrible from a bonus-clearing perspective. So I need a new strategery. I need to figure out a way to clear as much of my remaining bonus as possible with as little risk to my bankroll as possible. So far I've tried .25-.50 Stud 8 (started off well but then started losing), .05-.10 NLHE cash (too high variance), .25-.50 LO8 (couldn't win at all) and now .05-.10 PLO8 (not winning and not enough big pots at 6-max to clear bonus efficiently). What the hell should I do?

I'm thinking the best approach might be to return to .25-.50 LO8 and totally nut-peddle. I'm talking play uber-nitty PF and only continue past the flop with strong scoopable hands. Since FT calculates raked pots by dealt hands, not contribution, I don't actually have to see a single flop to get rake credit.

Thoughts?