I'll just post the hand you tell me your move. hero started hand with $7.35 UTG+1 covers

Poker Stars
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) hero is CO with A K 6 2
UTG calls $0.25 (pot was $0.35), UTG+1 calls $0.25 (pot was $0.6), hero raises to $0.75, 3 folds, UTG calls $0.5 (pot was $1.6), UTG+1 calls $0.5 (pot was $2.1).

Flop: T 7 Q ($2.6, 3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 bets $2.5, HERO?

EDIT: Ah my bad, didn't see it was in the Omaha hi/lo forum. I just saw the stars HH said Pot Limit Omaha. Preflop raise is definitely good.

On the flop you have no pair, 3 out gutshot draw to the nut straight, backdoor draw to the nut flush. Your baby flush might be worth a couple outs because of the chance you will hit it and just lose more money. 6 outs at best here. FOLD.

Need a low draw to go along with it to even consider calling IMO. Fold

You are blocking spades, which is good.. But your real draws (nutflush/low) are both backdoor, you have no hand, and someone wants to play a big pot. You don't have the hand to play a real pot, and you currently beat nothing.

Raising this flop only folds out bluffs, anyone with 2 pair or a set is going to gamble with you. I wouldn't be shocked to see KJxx with the Kx of spades. Someone with KQJT has you positively crushed, and you can't even be certain you wouldnt be up against a hand like that PLUS someone with a higher flush draw. This is the perfect scenario for seeing a cheap turn card, but the betting has made that an impossibility.

Short and simple: you have no ability to win the hand now, and not much of a shot to win the hand later too.. Even if you hit a spade, you can't value bet it with confidence, which screws your implied odds in this pot. There's only 3 cards in the deck that solve your problems on the turn or river, and you won't see 'em cheaply. Even in hold 'em.. Holding AK on a QT7 board isn't a scenario where you want to get invested greatly postflop.. This really ain't much different than that. Your implied odds are horrible, and considering your stack size a push from you lacks fold equity to make it a profitable move.

These type of hands play out a lot like chicken. You had the "disadvantage" of acting last, and now are pretty much stuck folding here. Raising can't be a long-term profitable move. Calling definitely is a long-term loser. And folding sucks, but is the only real way to play this.

I'm not even sold potting this preflop is that great in the long run, since the real strength in our hand is our low potential, with only a 6 for counterfeit protection. Yeah, we're double suited.. but I generally play 6high flushes as "flush blockers" more than additional outs, unless i get the pot heads up going into the flop. Yeah, it sounds nitty, but I'm much more likely to play A23x, A24x, and even A34x more aggressively than A2xx. Those rare occasions where people (god bless them) still interpret your PF raise as AAxx allows you some leeway in playing A2xx agressively, but you still need to hit some flops, and it's so damn hard to make A2xx work both ways without a backup plan. You'll laugh at the two others going nuts betting their A2's while you get all of the high side a lot more than you'll flop/turn the joint with A2xx

I'm sure your initial desire in posting this hand was to evaluate the action vs. your double-backdoor/potential babyflush possibilities, but that's far and away more of a LO8 concept.. and even then it's generally a "single bet only and when you can close off the action" scenario.

Of course, you could have disguised the hand and made the villian the hero.. in which case i'll agree and say i dunno what he was thinking when he called the flop.

As an added bonus: you may not be the only one peeling off a card with A2, and the other player with it may have a better counterfeit card and is more likely to have hit the other half of his hand somewhat. You'll need exactly a 3,4,5,6,8 on the turn that is preferrably not a spade to continue.. That plus the 3 miracle jacks gives you 18 cards out of 45 unseen to start some runner-runner action. And 83% of your "safe" turn cards enable you to spend too much money trying to see the river as well.

hero started hand with $7.35

i would lean towards tossing the rest in here.

this hand gets interesting if you are both like 100bbs deep, and then i feel it gets very opponent dependant.

He starts with $7.35, and still have $6.60 if he gets away from the flop.

I don't think we can have it both ways. In NL we can semibluff here if it's checked to us, or come over the top if we are deeper. The stack size is pretty brutal, since villain is getting almost 3 to 1 on a call. We don't fold out anything that beats us and certainly aren't called by anything we are "ahead" of.

This sounds pretty stupid.. But if we're going to commit to the pot, why shove at all? Since we're essentially drawing toward baby spades and a couple gutshot and backdoor scenarios, we'd actually encourage a call from the original Villain who checked.. This gives us a better price, more implied odds, and we actually get to see a turn card before committing our last $4.10. The presence of the 3rd player (and giving him great pot odds to continue) actually might make *calling*,as insane at it sounds, more profitable in the long run than donk-raising all in on the flop. It gives us a chance to see the turn card, get an even better price if a 3rd player comes along, and our implied odds are there because if we hit no one is likely folding to our puny remaining stack.. and if an absolute blank hits on the turn, we can get away with four bucks in our stack in an ugly situation. We *need* a turn card to allow us to continue anyways.. Getting all the money in only helps if we know our spades are outs, and our flush draw is so low we can't be certain, even 3-way at a 6handed table.

ahh yes I knew you'd get around to posting on this, and was pretty sure this is what you would say. If I was deeper here I would def. call and make my decision on the turn, but with my stack size I don't think I can do that + shoving over the top of UTG+1 who lead out pushes UTG out unless he has an absolute monster. I put UTG on two pair or trips with two pair being the most likely. I had been c-betting most flops I had raised pre on and the guys (as typical) had been checking the action to me then check raising when they were strong (or bluffing I suppose).

In hindsight I think this is what I should've done Cappy says "This sounds pretty stupid.. But if we're going to commit to the pot, why shove at all? Since we're essentially drawing toward baby spades and a couple gutshot and backdoor scenarios, we'd actually encourage a call from the original Villain who checked.. This gives us a better price, more implied odds, and we actually get to see a turn card before committing our last $4.10."

What if we flip villains hand face up [Qc Td Jd Ah] now what would you do on the flop?

P.S. I did shove

i dont know how good the opponents at this limit are, but this is the perfect sort of flop to bluff at.

when utg+1 bets the pot is now $5. if you can push out utg i you will have more than enough equity on average to get it all in. sometimes utg will have the nut flush draw or some other hand he can call with. it happens. the only hands that really kills you here is a higher flush draw. if you raise utg will fold all of those except the nut flush draw (it depends, but in general).

its fine to take the bad side of a 45/55 when there is $5 in the pot and you started the hand with $7.35. In fact, you can go even worse than that.

im not gonna run it, but im gonna guess that youre like a 40% dog and you should insta get it in with whats already in the pot.

this all shows a funny thing about plo8. most everybody makes this mistake, even calling stations. they fold too much. go play some 1/2 or higher. you'll get frustrated as you notice everybody calling all your bets that you want them to fold to.

I ran the figures it's way close against his hand like 51.8% to 49.2%. I decided to shove based on what I thought he was likely to have and the odds I wa getting on my $ like you said. What would you do here if you were deeper? say villain and hero had like $25 left behind?

P.S. I hit the gin card on the turn in the 8 of spades then he redrew out when he caught his boat card on the river. Then berated me for pushing on a hand he won!

if you want a general answer on how to play this hand deep i would say just fold the flop. you are going to get valuetowned too much when you make second best and not paid enough when you hit.

however, there are players against whom i would continue, and against them i would just call. then if utg goes over the top you can just fold. im trying to think of a few criteria for the players i would call against here and im coming up short. i guess it has to do with me being able to do the opposite of what i mentioned in the first paragraph.


were you playing against me by any chance?

didn't read replies, but i probably shovel this with your stack.

if things are a lot deeper, i actually like miniraise/folding, and taking the free card for pot control whether you hit (the flush) or not. if you make both ends on the river, you can get a lot of money in.

this made me feel better....