Here's a question for those of you who have been playing this game for a while. What kind of success have you had at this game over the long term?

The reason I ask is because I'm starting to get very frustrated with the rollercoaster nature of O8. I just can't seem to put together a string of decent sessions. It's basically one step forward, one step back. I am slightly profitable because of the odd double-forward step but it just seems like there is a certain amount of lack of control over your own success in this game. Last night I had yet another session full of missed draws, awesome starters that turned to garbage, watching the board pair when I have a straight and/or flush draw, and, of course, getting quartered again.

I can't help but wonder if long term success (real success, as opposed to eking out a tiny profit) is really possible at this game.

honestly, I haven't had a lot of success on starz. I did do quite well playing on AP, but since I've switched over it has been much tougher. I am curently back to about where I started . I did at one point have my roll doubled up and then was way down and back to where I started again. I have been thinking about switching over to FT for awhile now because with rakeback I'm sure I'd be up shrug

here's a link to the new sample vid Mike da Mouth did. Kind of interesting listening to his thought process

http://www.cardplayer.com/pro/preview

I'll have to check it out when I'm home later.

I'm not nearly mathematically inclined enough to do any calculations, but I seriously wonder whether the design of O8 greatly reduces the edge that a "good" player as over weaker competition in the long run and makes it more of a break-even game. First, the split-pot nature of the game makes it much more difficult to win big pots, or even profit at all in a lot of situations (I love hitting quads and making no profit when I split a heads-up pot). Second, the fact that most of the value of hands comes postflop greatly reduces the value of your starting hands (so damn frustrating when you raise with suited A235 and the flop comes TJJ rainbow). Third, because of the first two points it is much harder to push players off hands and steal pots.

I suppose if I had endless hours to devote to the game I could probably put up a decent profit at the low stakes with a fairly tight nut-peddling approach, just waiting for the scoops to fall into my lap. But I don't have endless hours to devote to the game, and I think I would get bored out of my skull with such an approach anyway.

I would limp with a suited A235. I try limping a lot of pots in O8. Maybe a leak is those extra bets you put in preflop with really a low/high hand only. I would consider a hand like the A235 a low only hand although the A suited is nice.

If I was the button and the whole table limped, I would rather play a 9TJQ hand because I would think there are a lot of live high hand cards. In lower limits of O8, people chase just about any low no matter how crappy.

Interesting video so far. Here's a question:

At one point he's dealt KdJdQc6c in the hijack seat of a full limit table and there is a limp in front. He folds the hand but says if there were a raise and 2 callers he would definitely play it because he would know the high cards are live. This kind of thought has never entered my head during a game. Is the thinking here that with a raise and 2 callers in front he can assume those players are likely playing low cards (A2, A3, etc), so he stands a better chance of connecting with his high cards on the flop?

nope.

its probably the opposite.


you're not raising enough.

Matusow actually discusses the zig-when-they-zag approach to playing hi-only hands multiway in the Full Tilt Tournament Strategy Guide, but I think the concept is equally applicable to cash play. With several players in a pot, even against a raise, playing a hi hand late can be profitable because all the low cards are out given the action and the chances of the flop coming hi only, and hitting your hand hardest, are higher.

Really, if everyone's only playing with Ace-2-wheel/broadway suited and similar wheel hands, of course the game's going to seem unprofitable or minimally profitable. With everyone playing the same way, everyone just exchanges money back and forth (minus rake, of course).

That's completely the opposite of how I've been playing high hands. I've been looking for spots to get in cheap with high hands, in unraised pots. I have to say it's exciting when I hear things that challenge my thinking like that. Maybe I'm not ready to give up on O8 quite yet...

That said, players at the micro stakes definitely don't sit and wait for A2 hands. Most of the players typically have VPIPs in the 60-75% range. I've had some success with the aggressive positional raising strategy, but it really requires just the right kind of table - one that you don't often find at the micro stakes (passive players who will easily back down postflop). The most effective strategy against these players is probably to nut-peddle but it is very boring. The risk in opening up too much (my VPIP is usually around 30%) is that I get sucked into playing non-nut hands.

I still haven't figured out the best way to beat the micro stakes players.

I've found that seeing a bunch of flops is where it's at. At the micro limits you are going to be seeing a bunch of people chasing their non-nut lows with bottom pair a ton of the time. If you play a lot of pots in position you are going to be able to extract the money from the post flop.

im not putting this to brag

in fact, i think that this isnt really all that great. imo 7ptbb or even more is easily attainable long term at these levels. as you can see from my vpip and pfr, i am leaving quite a bit of money on the table in exchange for lower variance and my sanity. for full ring these should optimally be about 24/11 for the style that i play.

the higher rate at 6max is not a heater. i've been playing more and more 6max becouse its much more profitable. i wouldn't be suprised if my winrate there is around 9ptbb/100.

for the last half of this i have been playing much better. the next 50k hands will have a much higher winrate.



if you play 3 tables a day for 8 hours a day you can do this in less than two months.

and don't forget that there is about $1100 from rakeback here also.

not chump change for most people.

i'm hoping this will be inspirational. you defnintly can make some serous cash playing this game.

LOL, this is kind of the problem. I'm a recreational player who has maybe 1.5-2hrs to play in the evenings, so I don't have anywhere near the time available to put in that kind of time. I guess what that means is that I have to be looking really long term if I want to think about being profitable.

Interesting that your VPIP is around 24% at 6-max, I would have thought it would be higher. Congrats on the results, though. Out of curiosity, how many hours have you put in to achieve that?

442 hours but my mt ratio is way too low. its actually 1.99 right now i would like to get it to around 2.75.

What ratio?

In any case, I've decided to take a break from O8 for a while and just focus on my NLHE STT play. I'm still trying to rebuild after a slump and O8 is just too darn frustrating.

you guys talking about limit or plo8?

limit has dried up like whoa over the last 6 months at the middle limits. it seems like i'm playing 5 pros, 2 good amateurs, and 2 guys with only medium-sized preflop leaks whenever i play lately. granted, i don't play o8 often enough anymore to really concern myself with game selection, so this may not be true everywhere at all times, but during my one session every two weeks or so, it drives me bonkers and i go back to LHE or 2-7. i really hate thinking more than i have to, lol.

PLO8 will always be soft if you've got the balls to up your variance and blow people off half pots. only like one of the tards on 2+2 even has a basic grasp of that style of play.


other notes:

a235 is a raise in NL/PLO8 and could be either a limp or a raise in LO8, imo.

antistuff, your stats seem about right to me, though you can probably play a few more hands in 6max and buy the button more to marginally increase your winrate.

**** you guys for getting me interested enough to play this game again. i forgot how bad i run at it, lol.

LOL, sorry man.

haha it's cool--i only lost 30 bucks, but going 0/10 on freerolls while your opponents go 7/8 is a little painful.

you know, for like 5k hands you run and feel like god, and then for the next 5k you constantly lose every time you get it in as a 80% favorite or on a total free roll with 22 outs to scoop.

its like the variance is low, but the streaks are very long.

Which brings us back to why I started this thread in the first place!

what about 8 tables, 3 hours a day

I have had a lot of success in Omaha 8. Basically if you’re playing well you will eventually do better, but there is much less control in the game when it’s a ring game then when it’s short handed so expect some variance if your going to play. Hope your luck improves sir.