Full Tilt Poker
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $10.60
UTG+1: $8.55
Hero: $22.85
Button: $15.60
SB: $17.15
BB: $37.35

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls $0.25 (pot was $0.6), BB checks.

Flop: ($0.85, 4 players)
BB bets $0.85, UTG calls, Hero raises to $4.25, BB calls.

Turn: ($10.2, 3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($10.2, 3 players)
BB bets $10.2, Hero ??????

I don't have any reads on villain as it's only 2nd orbit since I sat down. Is this an easy fold here fearing QQxx or AQxx?

Help on all streets welcome. I don't know why I didn't raise preflop, this is something I have been trying to work on but my brain malfunctions on occasion.
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Raise preflop. Shove turn.

Shove the turn? Any hand villain is likely to be playing on that flop just boated on the turn (33, QQ, AQ), which means Hero is now drawing very thin. The flush outs are worthless, which means Hero has to fill up to have any chance of winning. The best case scenario is villain holding 33, in which case Hero has 12 outs to a better boat (9's, J's, Q's, K's). But that's best case. If Villain is holding QQ Hero has only 10 outs; AQ and Hero is down to just the 3 King outs to win, and 2 Q outs to split.

Why push the turn into such a dangerous card?

If we'd raised preflop the hand would have played out differently. If he has the case ace (or QQ or 33), good for him. He could hold a worse ace as well. I'm not folding this hand, so I'll put $ in on this turn.

also - if he has QQ or 33 he should be 3betting us on the flop, so I don't give him that much credit.

Isn't there a happy medium - not folding but trying to keep the pot small? I wouldn't want to fold either, but I also don't want to put all my money in when I'm likely behind and possibly drawing very thin.


Do you see him playing anything this way that Hero beats? Do you really think he'd pot-lead and then call a big raise w/ TP on the flop, with UTG still to act?

In the 25c game at full tilt, this could be as little as 2456 with spades that makes that play.

I don't think we're ever putting our money in drawing "that" slim (only AQ has us crushed).
I feel we're in better shape than you think here.

Pot turn. River becomes easy after that. If you're checking the turn for pot control and to induce a river bluff/value bet from a weaker ace, then you should be intending to call this river.

I prefer raising PF in CO with that hand and one limper, although I don't mind limping either. I would be raising PF in this situation about 75% of the time and calling 25 % of the time. This ratio can also vary depending on table dynamics.

ASIDE: I'm amused that when I first read this topic, I completely missed the ace in our hand, so I was horrified that people were advocating potting the turn when we could be drawing dead. With us having that ace, it is an easy pot on the turn.

See, I raise this preflop 99% of the time.

That's taking into account a 1% margin for misclicks.


Oh, and FOR THE LOVE OF GOD POT THE TURN.

Ok so what if we pot the turn and villain shoves, do we call there? Basically the same decision as on the river the way it played out only we haven't made our flush.

Erm...of course you call. It would be something like $7.5 into $35.

I still haven't heard a good argument for why potting the turn is a good idea given how many hands Hero is behind here. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I just need someone to explain it to me instead of just saying "pot the turn" in every post.

See above. 95% of the time we're either WAY ahead of a naked Ace-spade flush combo on the turn OR we're drawing live with 10 outs against QQxx or 33xx. The other 5% of the time, he has the exact 2 cards that have us killed, AQ.

At these limits, you can't fear the nuts all the time - people do some crazy, stupid shit - see below.


Full Tilt Poker
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $19.80
UTG+1: $44.25
CO: $53.15
Button: $18.70
SB: $22
Hero: $56.25

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with J A 4 9
UTG calls, 2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, Hero checks.

Flop: 5 4 Q ($2, 4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, Button checks.

Turn: K ($2, 4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, Button checks.

River: T ($2, 4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG bets $0.5, 2 folds, Hero raises to $3.5, UTG raises to $13, Hero raises to $29.5, UTG calls all-in $6.8.
Uncalled bets: $9.7 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: $41.6
Hero showed Jc Ad 4s 9h
UTG mucks 9d Jd 8c 6d

Call that river everytime without any reads. People play very stupid a lot of the time and I would be surprised if he didnt show a smaller flush.
If he does have the boat then oh well, he played it very tricky and he deserves all your chips!

Never pot turn. You are either way ahead and pushing worse hands off the pot or you are way behind possible drawing to 3 outs and putting a big portion of your stack in the pot drawing to a coupe of outs.

Does anyone ever consider what BB might be betting flop with since we have the ace of spades? He can't be betting with FD. The only hand we are beating here is KJT with spades or a naked ace. Most player at this level is check calling with that and that is the right play OOP.

He obv has a set or two pairs on flop which boated up on turn.

He goes for a failed checkraise on turn.

He pots river to cover up his lost value hoping you had the FD.

Bet 5.5 - 6.5 on turn if you want to bet it. You get called by a worse ace and maybe a FD with a guthsot str8 draw or something. If he calls and donk leads on river you know you are beat. If he repots you know you are beat. If he calls and checks river you know you have him now.

Potting this turn is probably the worst play you can do IMO in terms of winning the most when you have the best hand and losing the least when you don't.

The only reason i can come up with to explain why all the PLO regulars here suggest a turn POT is standard is they haven't really thought deeply about this hand at all and just went with their "robotic" action which becomes pretty common after playing 10.000s hands of PLO.

Wow, so maybe I'm not completely out to lunch...


Sure, but doesn't it depend heavily on how that 95% is broken down? If 80% of the time we're behind QQ/33/AQ and 20% we're way ahead of some other junk, playing it hard is a losing proposition.

I'm not familiar with the play on Tilt, but I play .02-.05 on Stars and the competition is quite a bit better than you give credit for here. Sure there are maniacs and donks who push weak hands, but as a general rule I find that when someone is playing like they have me beat, they usually have me beat. Especially when it involves a large bet on the river.

I can understand making these kinds of moves in a tournament but in cash play it seems to me like the more prudent route in a situation like this is to keep the pot small and push hard if you boat up.

I think your reasoning about making this play in a tourney as opposed to a cash game is flawed - it should be the opposite. I'm more willing to push small edges I may have in cash games where if I'm wrong or get caught I can just reload as opposed to in tourneys where with one mistake I'm out.

If we have a small edge here i think we are losing it by potting and making worse hands fold while getting a call from a dominating hand and worse part is we are calling a repot or a bet on river no matter what.

Btw a worse hand may not call a bet on turn but it may try to steal on river.

That's one way of thinking about it, but I don't approach my cash games that way. I typically buy in with what I'm prepared to lose in that session, and if I lose it I'm done. But the difference between cash and tournies is that in cash games you don't need to take the kinds of risks that you need to take in tournies. Maybe that's why I tend to opt for keeping pots small when I'm not a big favorite and I tend to give people credit for better hands more than others do.