This was actually from the 20 man winner take all event at Stars, plays more like a cash game so I put it here. Discuss my line of thinking here.

Background: had my opponent pegged as a slightly careful player, not a huge bluffer.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (10 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero (t5660)
UTG (t5290)
UTG+1 (t5460)
UTG+2 (t3705)
MP1 (t6430)
MP2 (t850)
MP3 (t5060)
CO (t7095)
Button (t8645)
SB (t1805)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J, 8.
5 folds, MP3 raises to t300, 3 folds, Hero calls t200.

Flop: (t680) K, K, J (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 checks.

Turn: (t680) 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets t350, Hero raises to t900, MP3 calls t550.

River: (t2480) 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 checks.

Final Pot: t2480

I think this is probably too many levels over my head, but i'm kind of confused as to where the 'info' comes from in this raise.

If he has a king, he can flat call and bet the river (which you probably fold to right?) or he can re-raise which you fold to.

How does his reaction to your raise give you any information to act on the river with? You're not going to value bet if he calls, and if he bets the river after flat calling the turn you're still going to be a bit unsure of you're hand.

I'm suprised you didn't call here and get to a showdown cheaply, i though that was more your kind of style.

I think I prefer to lead the turn for ~400 here once the flop checks through. There might not be quite as much reliable info from that action, but I worry that a CR bloats the pot too much and leaves us slightly awkward on the river. I guess the CR might get him to dump a few hands that beat us? The check twice CR just doesn't often get much credit in my book...cause it doesn't make much sense to me. Once he's called the turn, are we planning to check-call the river once the draws miss? Do we think villain would value-bet something like AJ?

I think you played this ok. It's hard to gather a good deal of information with the check raise. The flat call could mean a few things: I have a king, QQ, J with a better kicker or flush draw.

It's hard to play this hand out of position, but I think the flop check reveals his hand a bit more. I think if you peg this guy as a careful player who doesn't bluff too much, he would have bet this flop with a K. He's betting about half the pot on the turn after you've checked twice - to me, this reveals some weakness (potentially a monster, but let's be optimistic.)

I think this guy either has a scared pair of Qs, AJ, or possibly AQ of hearts, but I don't think he would wait that long to bet. The only thing you can beat on the river is a busted flush draw, and I think if you lead the river with a good sized bet, you'll be able to get him off the winner if he is the careful player you say he is.

We don't think he will value bet any hand like AJ at all on the river. Only hands he might bet on river are King or better, flushes or straights if he hits... and missed draws, but not likely to bet a missed draw.

I don't really know your line of thinking at all. I think if I chose to play the hand how you did (by checking the turn), I would check/call the turn and then check/call the river.

I'm not really sure what the reason for the check/raise on the turn is.

I'm wondering what your river line here is too. I think you might be check/folding it, but I don't think I like that.

Edit: My guess is villain has AJ.

There is actually a very, very good reason for my play and I'll explain soon

hmmm... well i guess if you c-c the turn/river it's going to cost about the same as this c-r... this board is really really draw heavy... and since dn has pegged his opponent as not being bluff heavy he needs to get value out of draws now because we can be certain he won't fire the river with anything we beat...

at the same time we do have some fe against a stronger jack... though the stronger jack will probably call and be contempt with showing this hand down on the river

the king will most certainly be 3-betting on this board... i think he shows up with a king like never

I'm not sure if there was intent to fire at any of the cards that completed draws... but you absolutely have to shut down on that ugly brick on the river...

but i'm prolly way off base

I would lead the turn like Cobalt said. I think if you are going to call preflop, and get that action on the turn that I'd be betting. You said you thought he was a careful player, so if I take that the way you mean it, I would bet the turn and not be expecting him to bet the turn if I checked to him.

I think he shows you 88, 99, or TT here. I really don't expect to see AJ very often.

Post more in this forum Daniel, we would really enjoy it

Does anyone else fold preflop?

Never, ever, ever, especially with a high ante.

If I check call turn and river, how much will that likely cost? If I check-raise turn and don't put any more money on the river, who decides how much it costs to essentially "pay him off?" That's just one more hint to think about...

Given stack and blind sizes and the tournament we're talking about, calling's pretty reasonable. However, folding's probably preferred for someone that doesn't feel comfortable post-flop.

Daniel, it's certainly a very unusual line and thought-process for the hand. Have you come across the situation enough to formulate the approach or is it a more recent insight?

if you smooth call the turn, aren't you more likely to have to call a bet on the river that's more than the size of your raise on the turn as played? your raise cost you 550, but if you smooth call, he's going to bet at least 650 or so on the river no matter what he has with all the draws out there, hoping you may have missed one of those.

assuming that after the flop checks through, you definitely want to show down your hand, i think your line makes it hard for better jacks and QQ/AA to get maximum value against you, and it also looks weak enough to get some extra value off of pairs less than a jack.

The check raise turn line works very well here IMO.

we are OOP, if we did flop trips we would most likely check it here. Occasionally bet it. Except for our tagged info of villain.

if we lead the turn, we give our villain with position a chance to steal it by making a raise, which then puts the decision back on us to decide if he slow played a King on the flop or not.

Our check on both streets followed by a raise is to appear very strong that we were just waiting to milk out an extra bet. If and when villain calls or raises us, we can assume he has an actual hand.
which is why we check the river at this point.

Because the villain appears slightly passive in DN's view, he wont make any river bets here without a hand like AK, JJ



If villain ever read any of DN's strategy posts about nl holdem, he would realize that Daniel likes to utilize 4th street as a way to manipulate his hand,( or something to that extent).

honestly, without the nuthugging accusations, I think this could be a good line in trying to see a cheap showdown, if you think he might check behind on the river, the a check/raise can help control how much you put into the pot, where a c/c puts you at the whim of however much villain wants to put in.

he very well could be betting TT here, but if he bets enough on the river, it makes a call with J8 tough.

honestly, i don't think you see a 3-bet in this spot enough to worry about it, but should it happen, fold unless a big read tells you otherwise.

but, i'm a razz specialist, so i could just be spewing tardness.

I'm surprised villain doesn't bet this river with ATC because it's be such a weird line for you to check flop, checkraise turn, and then checkraise river with trips or better.

then again, beyond your trip queens lay down, a villain wouldn't dare bluff you, fearing you'd type "Kx huh?" Call.

I haven't read replies.

Your raise isn't for "info", imo.

It's a combination of value and fold equity, imo.

I've said it to a million people, and I'll say it to Daniel himself, raising solely for "info" is a huge leak.

Having said that, this raise can potentially accomplish more than just giving us information, as it can either be a value raise, or even a bluff.

I think that I like a turn lead much better than a turn c/r.

I understand the logic that by c/r here, you find out if he does have a K and you get value from draws and you also set up a free showdown much like you might with a raise in position. Based on your read of the player, you feel he's unlikely to bluff and when the draw bricks off, he has to legitimately fear that you're going to be c/c with Kx hands as bluff catchers for all of his missed draws that he might bluff on the river.

I mean, it looks good I guess. Unless you think he's the type to raise a turn lead with air or a draw, I still think that's the best play, but I actually like what you did here, only because you're playing against very good thinking players who will see all of the layers that you're seeing here.

http://www.fcnp.com/index.php?option=com_c...9&Itemid=36

Are we trying to imply to the villain here that we might have a king? Isn't the gig up when we check the river?

I think you're advocating for a raise on the turn so that you'll be able to check the hand down (with the added chance to taking down the pot), at least from what I read?

I always run this play, but I only do it in position if I'm worried about getting the hand to end quickly and cheaply. Against a good opponent, he's usually going to bet the river if you check/raise a drawy turn, and then check the river OOP. I know I'd fire just about everything in my range. I'd be fairly sure if you had a king or something big, that you wouldn't risk a check down on the river.

Read my post, which combined with DN's original read, explain why it will probably work for him to check the river.

I think that a c/r has to be a legit fear and that a draw often makes up a lot of the villain's range and there would be more value for DN to let the villain bluff the river than there would for DN to fire the river after checking the turn.

Where does it say anything about an ante in the hand history? Did the converter mess up?

How did we end up with 680 in the pot on the flop?
Raise to 300 + SB (50) + BB call (300) = 650, so there's an ante of 3 per player?

I read them. Does DN actually play a king like that? Do you?

I think it's pretty transparent that neither player has a king...

once the opponent flats the turn he's telegraphed to DN he doesn't have one... so unless we want to run a bluff on this river why continue with the facade?

If we're villain holding a K:

Isn't it possible DN is holding a heart draw, a straight draw, or a combo draw? If we're holding a King as villain, shouldn't we be betting the turn?

If we're not holding a K:

If we do call the turn check raise, and see DN checking the river, it's so unlikely DN has a King. If we do have AA/QQ, we're so likely to have DN beat given the way he played, but we might get him to call a bet if he has a J. So, if we have a Full House, King, Aces, or Queens, we should be betting. We might be betting with a stronger jack, but we might just be better off checking behind in case DN has AA/QQ/AJ. What else are we betting with on the river as villain that DN beats? Q10? No ones opening a lesser jack, right?

Acid_Knight, can you help me with my reasoning above? Are we expecting villain to be betting a hand on the river we beat?

I think the villain shows down almost all of his range that has any showdown value here. When DN c/rs the turn, he's most likely got a king, a draw or air. It's pretty unconventional to c/r the turn here with the 2 pair like he did. I think that when the river comes, the villain will figure this out and when it's checked to him, he'll bet a K if he has one, which seems unlikely give then action, and he'll consider betting his missed draws.

I think a lot of this play hinges on how DN perceives his opponent and visa versa.

To answer David Nicoson, no, I'd never play a King like that, but it doesn't mean that you shouldn't from time to time in order to possibly showdown weaker holdings and balance ranges and things of that kind. But, if I did have a weaker king, like K9 or something like that, I just might check the river because I'd figure that he's about as likely to have a busted draw or a better hand than he is to have a weaker hand (like 2 pair) that'd call the bet.

The play is pretty thin and read dependent either way IMO.

If the hero (holding a king) thinks that the villain's range has a significant draw component, then the turn check raise should be much bigger, imho.

Some of you got it really well. The idea behind making a relatively small check-raise on the turn is that

A) It looks like I want to be called
It allows ME to decide the price I want to pay to pay this hand off
C) It helps me find out if he has anything at all
D) If he puts me on a bluff he may call me with a worse hand
E) If he is drawing, I'm making him pay a little more

The reason it's even less likely that my opponent will bet a marginally better hand than mine on the river is because of the draw heavy board. If he puts me on a busted draw, why would be bet the river?

Why do some of you rule out the idea that I could play a King this way? Surely you guys aren't robots are you! The fact is, his check on the flop looks slightly dangerous and for me to check-raise after he bets the turn shows even more significant strength.

This is a play I use quite often against better players actually. They don't know that I'm shutting down on the river so before deciding to call the turn they also have to consider calling a large river bet.


Lastly, I'm not necessarily committed to folding the river against a lot of players. In fact, checking the river to an aggressive bluffer could win me more bets when he decides I'm weak and tries to take it away from me, figuring we both may have had the draw.


My Opponent had As Qs

Daniel... I was playing this hand through in my mind the way I would if I incorporated your check raise technique. But I am wondering, I don't put him on a K either and possible a stronger J is the only hand I can think beats us on the river. So why not try to fire again on the river to chase him off AJ or something along those lines by representing the K? That way he folds his busted draw, maybe any J and we don't have to showdown our hand. Can you let me know why it would be wrong for me to do that?


BTW... Thank you for posting these and all of the veterans for their analysis. It's one of the things that makes this the best poker forum I have found.

To a stupid aggrodonk like me your turn c/r followed by a check on the River looks so weak. And i think i would try to bluff. And i definitly would valuebet AJ or better.
I simply couldnt believe you have a big hand here? If you had i would be really surprised.

As i thought about it i think your play is really smart. It looks like a trap, but in fact you are protecting your weakness and forcing your opponent to polarize his range on the river. That means you will have an easy decision.

Daniel your the messiah of poker!

Yeah, my last comment about betting the river probably is a very unprofitable move. Of course the set calls you. And he could have been slowing up with the simple call on the turn. So he could have you crushed. If he has something like AJ I guess he could be scared to bet that after the c/r. Makes sense to me. I think I over play this on the river too often.

Yes, yes we are. It pisses off robots when they price in a draw and have to pay it off on the river when the board offers a huge number of possible draws. We really hate that. It makes us want to connect your species to a simulated universe and use you for an energy source.

(Haven't read any other posts, yet)

Well, I suppose, that pre-flop, you're thinking you can outplay the villian later in the hand, considering your read on him. Once the flop hits, you've got to figure out whether he's got a King, a flush draw or a better Jack. Checking the flop makes complete sense, you don't want to bet into three kings. And, since he is a "careful" player, he would bet out if he had trips, not wanting to let the next cards come up flush. Once the villian checks, you're starting to feel safe that he doesn't have trips. The turn is a pretty safe card, and the villian's half-pot bet seems like a feeler (or a terrible bluff, but not likely), with something like AQ- or AT-suited. Your check-raising with the best hand, potentially. If he were slowplaying, he'd three-bet big right here (where you could get away with little lost). But, he doesn't, so now are you ruling out trips, for sure? He calls, and the river comes up safe, no flush. I'd be worried about AJ or JT. It sounds like those are in his range, to open raise with. So, after the river, you're probably thinking you're 50/50 to win, so you check.

Either DN wins, or is outkicked.


EDIT: I've read thru, including DN's answer. I don't know why I wasn't thinking big pair pre-flop. Totally dorky, by me, those are completely possible. But, by the end, highly unlikely.

Also, I love the check-raise on the turn. It screams, "I have a king" to the villian. And, he has demonstrated that he probably doesn't have one. I'd be fine with firing at the river, too. With the busted flushes, he's outta there. (I don't find the straights to be in the "careful" range.)

Well played.

But what do you do if he checks on the turn as well? Do you then bet on the river or check and hope he raises on the river?

My question is this:

You made a small turn c/r and if called what do you plan to do on the river? He could interpret your small turn raise followed by a check as a weak hand or even a draw and bet again. Do you call this river bet or fold?

I would hope he bets more than just a king on this river.

there is no way the villain is check the flop with AJ, which makes the check raise on the turn a relatively good move. The only hand I believe he would check with on the flop, and just smooth call a check raise on the turn is either an absolute monster, and just a draw, and it certainly does look more like a draw, I was thinking nut flush draw like AhQh. nice play daniel

[x] imo

i really like the explanation of why you check raised so small on this turn. if youre against a draw, youre going to get a bit more out of him if he bricks, and if he has Kx or some other dominant hand, it forces him to believe you might very strong. the very small raise generally means you want to becalled... although if theyre a competent player they might realize its a reverse tell. very well played post flop as always DN