1/2 NL at Venetian.


Hero - 275
Vegetable Lasagna - 400
Button -130

Reads - Vegetable Lasagna is a fairly tight passive player. He is straight forward on his plays.
First read came when a raise to 10 from MP. He raised to 25, and i called on button wit AKs.
flop was all rags, and it went check, check. and I bet 40 and both fold. He said he had Big slick.
Next read came when he flopped a straight. a bet, and he raised about 3times the bet. the other player folded and he showed the flopped straight.


Hero is BB with 6 8

4 players limp, Vegetable lasagna completes the SB, hero Check.


flop ($12)

2 5 4

Veg.Las. check, hero bet 10. folds, button calls, Veg.Las raise to 30....

Read Update- Glanced at button, he had his 20 in his hand to throw in.

hero call, button call.


turn
k

Veg Las bets 75.

Read Update - watched button sigh, show his neighbor his hand while looking frustrated with the hand


What are everyones thoughts here, at this point in the hand, how do you want to proceed. where are your views on villains. etc...


I will post all the results and my thoughts after some replies.

With Lasagna being such a tight-passive, straightforward player, can you really see him check raising the flop with a flush draw? Probably not, unless it was a huge combo draw like 6h7h.

Having said that, I think a small set or 2 pair are very probable here. He would not have raised pre-flop into 5 players with
22, 55, or 44, 54, 52, etc, so we can probably put him in that range. Any other medium pair like 66 to TT (maybe with a heart draw as well) are possibilities, but less likely IMO.

I think we absolutely have to put him on either a made hand or an overpair, given his betting on the flop and your semi-read of his playing style.
I would probably fold after the CR on the flop. As played, I would fold the turn.

Vegetable Lasagna bet into two opponents who called the flop even though the flush got there. I have to think he has a hand with at least good potential to improve to beat a flush (e.g., A 3 or 55). If I make a move, it's on the river.

I like the flop lead and call with the deceptive double belly buster. i don't think we are deep enough to call turn and hit/bluff river. I also think that if we call the turn there is very very little chance of him slowing down on river so i don't think we can make a move here ^^.

I guess I imagine Lasagna slowing down on the river if he didn't make a flush.

I think I just fold the flop. I like the button's telegraphed call for the odds, but I hate it if it's a flush draw. We have only 3 outs to the nuts. I do like Royal's lead from the blind, though. We're picking up this pot immediately unless people hit hard, which they apparently did.

I fold the flop here when it's raised by veggie and looks to be instacalled by button. Button probably makes some of our outs dirty flushwise and veggie most certainly has a made hand based on reads. Seems to me there's too much of a chance that we improve enough to lose money if we hit a dirty out vs button (who is possibly holding one of our straight outs anyways) and Veggie doesn't look like he's slowing down and we don't have much invested anyway. Of course this is all before the mention of the button's turn action...

As played, you could probably rep a flush on the turn as both probably did not like that card and the line for us getting there looks ok, only problem is with a tight player like veggie, those players can be extremely dangerous to bluff on 4th and 5th street because they are much more apt to be moved off hands pre-and-post flop and will rarely throw away hands late in hands if that makes any sense, especially when they get this heavily invested.

I think contrary to what other people are saying, calling the flop raise is fine. Royal's getting good odds and I'm sure he's not going broke on the 3h or the 7h, so overall I think that the flop is fine.

The turn, what do you think your options are? You're not deep. These players aren't sophisticated and probably aren't the best hand readers. You're not getting good odds to draw anymore and more important than anything, your call wouldn't even close the action.

This can't be anything but a fold on the turn.

I like this post... it is an interesting hand.

First off, I love the fact that you knew the button was calling the raise. There are so many times (playing live) that we can pick up so much info like this that will help out hand. Nice.

Second, that being said, I still think that we should be folding the flop c/r. I agree with 77, that some of our outs are better outs for the button (this is of course before the turn read, which we didn't have on the flop). Therefore, I think that it is a fold right then. If the board texture was different, then I call for sure.

As played, I think we have to fold the turn and note all the reads to stack these players later.

you coulda just said i agree with krup

That takes all of the fun out of rearranging your words to sound like my own, making myself appear to know what I'm talking about.

Anyway, I think the player behind us on the turn is the biggest influence that just takes away any thought of choosing an option other than folding. You didn't say that, now did you?

You can't continue with this hand on the turn. If he's straightforward, he either made his flush or already has the straight or set and he's most likely not folding. I think its spewy if you're going to reraise.

I think folding to the flop raise would be a mistake. Certainly given the tell from the button. But specially since veggie seems to really like his hand and will never put us on our hand if we hit the turn.

On the turn I'm pretty convinced that button has A5 or A4. Low limit donks love to play aces that can make a wheel. Veggie obviously likes his hand. I don't think we're drawing dead but we're not getting odds to call and I don't think veggie folds to a push. One problem these tight passives have is they get married to a hand and even though a turn push from hero really looks like a flush I think veggie calls with a set or two pair.

but he's disgusted and showing his seat neighbor his hole cards, lol which could be some kind of 6th level of thinking

It's possible. I wouldn't call or raise or make a play here even if the button wasn't in the hand. The fact that he is there is just another reason to fold.

OK, so I am anxious to see the results. Obviously you didn't fold because you posted it... so lets hear it.

I'm pretty sure he's gonna come back and tell us he folded.

FYP

i agree with krup

Ok. long reply. I will try to explain this as best as I can.

A few of you said you like the lead/call on the flop.. I thought the same as some. Obviously not wanting to see a heart, but very confident in my ability to double up if a 7 hits, and maybe a 3.

Its going to be hard for anyone to put me on that hand after leading a pot sized bet.

So now the K heart hits the turn. My immediate reaction is "game over" Until i look at button, and notice him frustrated, and shows the hand to his neighbor.

This to me is an obvious tell that he wont call. He probably had top pair or maybe an over pair. but is obviously not fond of his holdings anymore.

So now things change. I hold the 8 of hearts.

My original thought on Veg.Las holdings were a straight, 2 pair, set.

anyone of these hands, with the exception of the wheel, will have 2 cards that are lower than 8.

So how can I eliminate the Ace of hearts from his holdings?

well lets see. I defined him as tight passive. But what I soon realized was he re-raised preflop with AK. most passive players dont like re-raising with AK. So now my read kinda shifted a bit. perhaps he isnt as passive as i thought.

Veg.Las Is showing a very strong desire to take this pot down now. he bets 3/4 the pot.

how would he play a hand like A,3 with the ace of hearts? If he thinks any of us have the flush already, his wheel is no good, and he's bascially betting hard on a draw. A pointless play IMO because No matter what he bets, a flush wont fold.
The only time this makes sense is if he thinks he is up against 2pair or a set. His A high flush wouldnt matter then, and all he would need is for the board not too pair.
So its very possible, even more so that he is betting hard with the 3,6 straight, set, or top 2.

so with button folding, and us assuming that our outs include any heart, any 3, any 7. whats the math?

its 2.33- 1 in the pot for us to call. If we assign a range of straights, 2pair, sets. the rough median of this range is almost exactly 2.3-1 for us to improve to the winner. I thought it was more like 2-1, when i was in the hand... so forgive me.
(Now this is where clock was called on me. lol).
I took so long thinking here that it was very obvious i didnt have a flush, and probably didnt hold the Ace of hearts. It wouldnt make much sense in my play, to bet the pot on the flop/call the raise, then take this long when 3 hearts are on board.

This next part is a first for me while playing. I had been thinking so hard and was watching button's reactions the entire time that I actually couldnt hear anything. I was hearing my thoughts just running running...

I had a stack of 100 in my hand. and what happened next was retarded. Similar to in movies, and TV when someone freezes and doesnt respond, but their mind is like. "Yo wtf! wake up!"
thats how i felt. I watched my hand make forward motion into the pot with the chips. all i could think was "OMG I have to call now"
I dropped 25, then broke another 2 stacks of 25. (the money isnt much, i just couldnt believe i was calling)

At this point I had to trust my subconscious I guess, and my overall read.

The river was the 7h.

giving me the flush with my 8h.

Veg.Las paused for second, and slid a stack of 100 in, and I quickly called. (again, already in, and having to trust my read)

he turned over 3h,6c.


Would I make the turn call again? its very difficult to judge. I honestly do not think it was worth the investment. There are other features that could win us this pot on the river, like say the board pairs and veggie checks to us. fearing we filled up a boat, a river push might win us the pot.
Also, 4 hearts hitting and getting paid - If we assume that Veggie tags us as having 2pair/set because of our flop play and post flop pause he'll probably think we fold to any river bet. since our holdings will be so weak compared to the board.

anyways. Hope this didnt screw up anyones fundamental thinking. I don't recommend the call, but i thought it was an interesting hand to post

Cliffs notes:

Royal called the turn. Rivered a 1 card 8 high flush and called a $100 bet. He beat the player who was obviously raising with the nuts on the flop.

The thought process is fairly reasonable, but fold anyway

LOL.

Damn that was a long explanation. I don't really like how it was played, but enjoyable read. I think it's a pretty standard fold on the turn, though with your in depth analysis it makes it closer (although like you said, you can't rep a flush at that point because it takes awhile to think all of that stuff).

There's no room in this hand for you.
Button is giving a false tell.
Veg Las as a tight passive has a made hand here.
I doubt he shows up betting a K here.

lol, even my online forum reading ability is sick.

you're a true engineer at heart Mr. M. avoid all instinct and theoretical play whenever possible.

<3

u playing in any up coming tourneys? I'm thinking of playing the 500+ at venetian this saturday

Mostly for me, situations like this are like: If I'm right, I'm only going to be making the correct move by a very slight margin whereas if I'm wrong, I'm going to be making a rather large mistake. When the outcomes tend to be slightly good or severely bad, I think it's best to avoid them.

I wanted to give you credit in this post because unlike many others that you've posted, I actually see sound logic here. The thing is that even with your great read, you could have the hand or the player wrong here. He could've been pushing A5hh or whatever that super combo draw was on the flop. Maybe he mixes up his play and was semibluffing a bigger FD on the flop. I'm not advocating that you shouldn't trust your reads because they're very good here, but just consider what being wrong is going to cost you vs what happens when all of your reads are exactly spot on and you're still in a super marginal situation IF all of the variables are in your favor.

Either way, nice hand. I'm not going to be playing much this weekend. Lots of football watching and generally doing as much of nothing as I can

GIANTS FTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, so I've read many of the replies, but not the second one from Royal, yet.

I agree with most, about folding at the turn. You're being bet into, and you were still on a draw only. And, two of your outs are now dead because of the Kh. If you call, and backdoor a flush, you still can't be confident. If you put Veggie on precisely 6h7h, then maybe you could call, if HU. But, not three-way.

Mostly, tho, I'm folding it because you said Veggie was tight and passive. Yet, he is giving all kinds of action in this hand. That gets me right out of the way.


EDIT: I've read the rest. Your read of 3-6 is huge, and you should be proud that you got it right. Completing in the SB with any two cards there is common, and the right move for anyone. For some reason, I glossed over the grumpy button flashing his hole cards. But, you were right, that reaction is a definite fold from him. I don't think it's a false tell, at all. He might have had two pair, but I think it's more likely that he had A5-suited. Once the 7h comes on the river, you know Veggie doesn't have 6h7h. I'm still not sure I would have called here. But, the more I think about it, the more I like your though process, Royal.

thats what i don't like about the call on the turn.

I think you got very lucky in this spot. You could have easily lost $200 with an 8 high flush on a four flush board.

So what was his reaction when you called him? I'm gonna take a guess and say he wasn't happy.

good job, man. From your description I was thinking the veg las had a made hand on the flop, most likely the straight. So it makes sense to play it how u did. My only fault in these situations is probably folding to this river bet a couple of times when i shouldnt. I partially follow my reads like this but seem to shut down be4 the end too often. Guess its just practice and experience, huh?

Cuz it seems to me your #1 accomplishment in this hand is your river call. And oh if u can fit in a river min-raise here, knowing that A) he had the straight, musta gave him a lower flush too , u would be genious

If we are villain what is our optimal river line?

Also, if villain in this hand checked this river what were you planning on doing?

Good question.. I actually do bet it. Mostly because I'm confident that i'm ahead, and I really dont like showing my hands at showdown

bump cuz acid knight said my logic here was sound.

Since people are bumping stuff left and right at the moment, here's a question.

Do you still agree with your play here?

I'm inclined to follow Acid's logic about needing multiple reads to be spot on giving you a marginal win vs. being wrong anywhere and taking a big loss.

Also, since you put him on basically one hand (and the 7h on the river confirming he wasn't playing a combo draw), do you consider min-raising this river?

I agree 100% with what acid said.

My problem is "daniel negreanu-ism" I'm vocal about my predictions and make them as narrow as possible.

When it works, i'm a genius. But when i'm wrong, I get burned. So yea, this one was spot on, would i do it again? lol I dont know.

The more i look at this hand, the more i think. its a toss up that i have to think. he could have a set/2 pair/straight.. or he could have a straight combo small flush

i based my odds that there were more comibinations of sets 2 pair and straights than 1 particular combo of straight/and flush