PokerStars 100/200 Hold'em (4 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3, K.
1 fold, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) J, J, Q (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: (3.25 BB) 2 (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Final Pot: 5.25 BB


The question I have is this, based on the way this hand was played until the river, what range of hands would you call on the river with? Hero is me.

If I was villain, i would call with any king, ace high hand. If hero had shown more aggression on earlier streets i would most properly fold. the way this plays out the river bet feels like a steal and therefore i would call with either of the aforementioned holdings.

My guess would be that they guy either has 10-9 and gets scared of the Boat or someone falling into clubs... Or he has a hand like Q-10 or less, though 4 handed he may have been more aggressive with that hand...
I wouldnt call with less than 2 pair...he may feel commited with a king high if he were playing to the river on a K-10... That would be my absolute min......

Being the bad player that I am, I would have called to see if my AQ or KQ was good (yes I might have raised pre-flop with KQ on the button - I told you I'm bad!) Of course I would never be in stakes this high...

As Daniel knows when I play against him I call with anything since I just put my head down and never even look at the board

I would pay off the river with any A, K or pair in a 4 handed limit game where the hand played out this way.

I'm having trouble wording this correctly, so plz try to stay with me. lol

The villain has 3 basic options on this turn, depending on the strength of his hand, mostly.

1) Bet turn, with the intention of putting in more bets - Naturally, this is done with his stronger made hands. Overpair, trips, straight, etc, where we can definitely stand a turn raise, and probably want to put in more action. Some bluffs will try to 3-barrel depending on the river as well.

2) Bet turn, with the intention of checking behind on the river - Villain's range in this case probably includes a lot of pure bluffs/air type hands, and he's just firing a second barrel. It would also include some made, weaker hands, depending on our hero's tendencies. If hero plays straight forward, as villain, I'm betting this turn with hands that still have some value on the turn, and benefit from charging draws, getting calls from worse hands, etc. A hand like AK, 55, etc. These hands probably aren't strong enough to bet UI on most rivers, so the idea is to get them to SD cheaply, while extracting value from drawing hands. I'm also folding these hands to a raise vs straight forward players. This is essentially the last bet I put into the pot with my weaker made hands, and of course, with bluffs, I'm probably giving up on most rivers, depending on my reads.

The problem is, DN is probably not a straight forward player. He's probably going to be tricky, and almost certainly has turn semi-bluffs and pure bluffs in his arsenal here. So, that brings us to villain's play in this specific hand.

3) Check turn, with the intention of calling any river bet - The key for the villain here, is that he's going to have a hand with showdown value, but it can't really stand a raise, where we're probably going to have to duck a lot of outs vs a semi-bluff or even a pure bluff (which has 6 outs a lot), or we're way behind. So, instead of letting things get expensive, we just want to show this hand down, and hopefully let the hero in this hand value bet worse hands, or bluff with hands like K3o. Of course, it's still possible villain has just given up with his air, and will fold the river.

For the most part though, aside from a small percentage of air that he will fold, villain is going to show up here with any Ace, smaller pocket pairs, maybe a hand like 78s that paired the 8 on the turn, etc. I'd expect his range, after his turn check, to be calling this river somewhere around 95% of the time.

I love villain's play, and I don't even know what he held, lol.

EDIT - I just wanted to add that villain should also probably call with some of the better kings as well as all of his ace-high hands here. DN's hand is almost never an ace high, with the exception of maybe some offsuit weak aces like A3, A4, so K high is practically the same as Ace high in this hand.

You'd definitely call with those hands, as they are top pair, in a 4 handed game...

At the same time, you're never seeing this hand play out that way, because you should be betting the turn with those hands every time.

There is a zero percent chance of this being his hand.



I can see a bit of merit for checking the turn with a weaker Q, but I think about 99% of the time, villain is betting this hand on the turn, and calling down any raise, at least.


If you're folding your ace highs, and possible even some k-high hands on this river, you fold too much in a 4 handed game.

I didn't pay attention that it was a 4-handed game. I am learning alot just reading this thread. I obviously don't play short-handed limit ever at any stakes.

I think you should have left out your hand here bc alot of people are going to give biased results.

I think it's hard to give you a hand here, I would think more often than anything you have a Q here. A jack is very slim bc I think you'd be checkraising the flop almost 90% of the time based on the aggressiveness of a 4 handed 1/2 game online. I think you'd be c/r KT or 9T as well to get him off some ace highs or to get the lead and fold an AT or K9 on the turn. The only real hand I could give you here is a weak Q wanting to keep the pot smaller OOP and giving the A highs and gutshots more reason to fire the turn.

The way it's played I prob call with any Q, TT, and any 9 I might have hit on the turn. It's hard to call with A high here bc you are a good player so it's hard to put you on a desperation river bet since they are called so often.

Very good point about the the lack of aggression. I think you're chance to steal the pot was on the flop with a check-raise and then with another bet on the turn. Of course I'm not really sure about the particular table dynamics and not completely sure what a check-call on this flop from you usually is, but if I'm the button in this hand, I know you're very capable of calling on the flop with a wide range, and I know you're very capable of taking the lead on the river with a wide range. Given how the hand played out, I'm also guessing that button knows this and decided that his hand was strong enough to call one bet on the river but not a check-raise on the turn and another barrel on the river. If I'm the button here, I'm also a little suspicious of what you'd smooth call a bet on this flop with. You're probably going to check-raise any Q. Because of this, I'm going to guess that the button called with a marginal hand like Ace high or a weak pair like 6-6. And to answer your question, my minimum hand in my range for calling you would be Ace high, but it'd definitely be a crying call.

By the way, I don't think I would have revealed what your hand was either just because it does bias the opinions and analysis people give. But please do post what the Button had in this hand because I want to see if I'm right about what range of hands he'd play this way.

If I was villain I'd probably call down with any A-K-or pair. Your line looks pretty weak and I'm not sure what kind of hand your representing. The 2c does complete a back door flush but thats such a small range to bluff on. I'm not sure how you'd play a mid-pair in this situation so that could go into your range too.

If this was a value bet I don't see many hands worse than yours that call.

Why'd you post us your hand if you're asking us to make a decision as the button on the river? It's clearly leading to biased replies.

didn't read responses. my first instinct would be 22+, Kx and Ax. i think i would listen to an argument for T7, but i think it's a fold. there's the chance that hero is bluffing with a hand that beats T7 (as is the case here).

edit: read responses. i don't think my response was too biased by knowing what daniel had. against a complete unknown, i'm pretty sure it would be my calling range here. and then i'd change it as i developed a read.

I goofed by posting my actual hand. I'll give you a little more info here:

You have K-6 in this spot. What hands could I call the flop with that you cab beat by the river?

Hands you can't beat:

8-9
8-10
9-10
J anything
Q anything
K-2
K-10!!!
A- anything
Two random clubs

Hands you can beat:
random 10 high or lower with no draw at all
you can tie a random king hi


Now, think about this hand a little bit longer and come up with some reasonable responses. For me to check call the flop, then bet the river, and lose the pot... is that a reasonable enough, desperate hope, that you think justifies calling in the hopes that I decided to make a "play" by check CALLING the flop, not betting the turn, and then randomly firing at the river?


Had I not goofed and posted my actual hand I think it some of you may felt like calling with a random King hi would be horrible in that spot.

if i was the button in a loose 4 handed game, and i opened up (which i'm doing with a pretty HUGE range), and the BB called a flop c-bet, i would expect that on this flop his range could be almost any two cards. i don't think he'd be making too huge a mistake by peeling light (thinking correctly that any pair is probably good for him). DN, are you not peeling this flop w/ 79?

any reasonable hand that i could have KT, Ax, Q, J, etc. probably bets for at least some value on that turn, so i could definitely see villain (BB in this case) showing up with something like 57 trying to get me to fold a T or a 9.

but meh, maybe calling w/ Kx is terrible. i just don't see it yet.

Pretty standard for you to have any two cards on the flop peel, imo. Since it's unlikely he paired on that flop, it's pretty standard to assume you can peel with 1 over, since pairing either card is usually good.

The fact of the matter is that his line is pretty standard vs most opponents. Maybe you're not in that category of opponents, but there are a lot of bet monkeys out there who will try to bluff that river once you show weakness, no matter how obvious it is that you're showdown bound.

If villain did in fact have K6, that's very very marginal. In my first post, I didn't really consider Kx hands, but looking back (as you can see in my edit), I added the better once. I think K6 would be about the bottom bound of my range to take this line with.

==============

I'm curious though, what was your plan for this hand? You peel the flop with one over and a back door straight draw. So far it's pretty standard, IMO. Once you check the turn, what is your plan for when he bets? Are you just check/folding, or are you capable of throwing in a bluff here, or a semibluff? Just curious here.

A river call with k6 here isn't marginal, it's pretty atrocious. You can't beat ANYTHING. Hero is not going to have any 2 cards to peel the flop. A peel here with like 56 or 78 is bad and def -ev. The turn card is what makes the hand. Hands the Hero peels the flop with are most likely a hand that is either going to pair an 8 or make a straight with it, assuming he didn't hit the flop with a Q or a J. Hero could also have KT which would play against K6 or maybe even A high, which is unlikely though. There aren't many plays in limit poker that are as bad as this call would be for 2 reasons A) you are at the river meaning any bet you put in has it's exact value since the chance of sucking out is nonexistant and your hand is a loser almost 100% of the time when compared to the Hero's hand range. I'm pretty sure that's the whole reason DN decided to post this hand.

Yeah, meh. I'm not used to 4-handed dynamics. I'm mostly translating my HU experiences here. Originally, I didn't include the Kx hands until others mentioned them, and I was still a little hesitant to do so, and maybe influenced by the fact that Daniel did have K3.

I still stand by any ace and any pair, though, given that I know nothing about DN's tendencies in the game.

Ace high is a hand worth calling, that I'm ok with. Calling with K-rag is just horrifyingly bad in this spot and I can guarantee that it's a long term losing player under any circumstances, heads up or not. My peeling range is NOT any hand that he could beat... EVER. He can't beat K-10 or K-9! He has to pray that I'm making some "play" at him at the river and not before. I could see myself check-raising this flop with a hand like 9-7 (once in a while) but never check calling and showing no aggression in the hopes of a random bluff attempt on the river.

I called the flop and bet the river because I had my opponent on exactly king high, or possibly worse. My flop call isn't one I'll always make but my opponent wasn't the type to fire bullets after my flop call so my intention was to check it down in the hopes that king high is the best hand. When the 8 hit the turn, though, I figured I had to bet in case he has king high or decides to fold ace high there (it's actually the right play vs. me for sure). If there were a flush draw on the flop I wouldn't have bothered with a river bet, but because that board and the 8 on the turn hits EVERYTHING I figured he'd have to be pretty terrible to call with King hi. FWIW, I habitually crush that guy.

The biggest mistake these guys all make is that they pay off way too much. Sure, it's limit, and that means you have to call more often, but don't stretch it beyond even "trying" to make a good lay down once in awhile. If this guy planned on paying me off on any river card, a much better play for him would have been to bet the turn and then give up after that. He bets the turn he could possibly get me off ace high or a small pair even.

I certainly agree with everything in your most recent post.

Probably, my biggest mistake in this thread was recounting my experiences based on the type of player I tend to play, rather than the type of played I'd assume you are, Daniel.

All I play now is HU LHE, and basically, most of the guys will peel the flop with one overcard, and often even less, and will almost always bet when shown weakness. It's what makes c/c'ing rivers with marginal hands so great, and it makes this turn check/river call line so great.

It's entirely possible this player isn't adapting to your style very well, or he's just a "robot" internet player.

Fwiw though, I very rarely make K-high call downs in this spot, and usually I'm Ace high or better.

I assume the button had King-high, but I don't think we ever heard his actual hand?

K6 wasn't it?

if a random 2 cards makes up zero percent of your flop calling range, then, of course, the call is atrocious. i figured (perhaps mistakingly) that it might be as it usually makes up some portion of the range of villains i play against.

Thought DN had K6, but I could be mistaken. I'm new at this...

If that is the case, shouldn't you check the river hoping to induce a bluff? He sounds passive and would most likely check behind with an ace or better king.




Which one is it? If he pays off too much, he isn't folding A high for sure, and will call many if any king highs. I think that your weak K high is best as a bluff catcher, based on what you've told us of the villain so far. A read on the villain in the original post is always nice



Just because YOU know it's the right play, doesn't mean that that thought ever even crossed his mind


PS- Don't flame me guys, I know it's DN and all, but people regularly get ripped on much worse for posting hands without reads and such. When posting hands in strat it shouldn't matter who you are, there should be constructive criticism given.

Agree, imo.

If you put him on exactly king high, why didn't you raise teh floop?

What are you trying to make him think you have?

I don't think you would play a Q/J this way at all, he would most likely expect you to 3-bet PF with 55+, i don't think he's gonna put you on a pair of two's either when you call PF and on the flop.

Maybe calling with what he did is -EV long term, but i don't think you can blame him when i don't think he puts you on a strong hand here ever.

He doesn't have him on K high on the flop.

If he does, it's a mistake.

His range is essentially 100% of whatever his button raising range is.

I'm really unfamiliar with 4-handed dynamics, so I don't know what that is, 50%, 60%?

Either way, he's c-betting 100% of his range on this flop.

I would have folded that hand on the flop, dont see much hands im ahead. When I play that hand i raise on the flop and bet the turn and check/fold the river.
My Villians range to call the river would be 22+ Ax.

I need a read on villain before I am prepared to do anything, but I will say that most of the time this is a defensive check and you are getting valuetowned on the river so I would certainly need more than K high to call. No one with a brain tries to bluff the river after checking behind on the turn in a blind steal situation.

I'm very late into this but I would most likely call with all A-highs or better (depending on my image I may fold some of my worst A-highs) and instamuck all K-highs. I actually think this hand is pretty straightforward.

Man, this forum is so sweeet!

My first ever post, I have always followed Daniel on this site as I think he is the most down to earth, coolest guy at the tables. He speaks his mind which is very rare.

Daniel all the best for 2008.

I finally managed to sign up.

Woooo

imo...Ax+ is instacalling the river bet.

My question is was a c/r on the flop considered? That board almost never hits the villain and gets him to fold probably kx type hands.

c/r bluffs are sooooooooo standard on those flops, no one folds to them. People try to bluff paired boards waaaaay too much, imo. The only way he folds is if he has a worse hand than our K3, fwiw.

I definately agree but we are generally ahead of his range (assuming like 45-50% of hands) and we definately dont want to go to showdown with the hand as is.

Yeah, but we open ourselves up to be rebluffed.

Agreed, but it also works to randomize our play and can buy us some freecards later with king high/ ace high hands later b/c he has to at least respect our c/r option

I don't disagree with that.

In villain's shoes, I can picture a crying call with KT since he can still tie "your" KT or beat your K9.

I think that Daniel needs to bet this river to attempt to get A-high and K-high to fold. I doubt villain drops A-high very often, but if villain has K9-K3, we should hopefully be able to drive him off. Didn't work in this case, but given pot odds, it was probably worth a shot.

I'm not real crazy about the river bet. If I'm villain I expect hero to fire 90% of the time on the river when I raise preflop, c-bet the flop and check behind on the turn. So I'm calling with a pretty wide range, about the only hands I'm folding are the ones Daniel can already beat.

BBFIDTS?

I really enjoy this forum, glad I found it... The breakdowns and analysis is great to read.

My only additional thought on this hand is that history has to come into play. DN has played this guy before - as he says he usually tears him apart. Has this guy felt he had been bluffed off some recent hands, is he on tilt, had he seen that betting pattern. If he calls in that spot all the time then he is going to lose a lot of money - but feel really good about himself when he does catch DN. Like bad beats you generally remember catching a bluff longer then calling with a losing hand.

So even though I play in lower limits, I would not be upset with this outcome at all. It just has to increase my odds of getting paid off in the future. And once you get paid off a couple times, the stab at the river might work again.

i think villian has exactly acehigh and a mediocere kicker. he checked the turn cause he didnt want to be checkraised and to induce a bluff on the river

Technically not a bad beat because:
1. DN didn't lose the pot
2. DN never had the best hand at any point here.

But yeah, K6 should fold here. I think the call with A high is marginal, but ok.

K6? hm he is beating close to nothing what pealed that Flop. I think K6 should fold the river cause daniels play looks really like a witheled checkraise on the turn and that the pot consists just 4.25 BigBets.

(First post for me.......woohoo........probably not exciting for anyone else, but still.) I'm replying w/o reading other responses, yet.


I'm not sure there is a hand I call with. If I had a Jack, I probably would have kept betting, at the turn. I wouldn't worry about kicker problems until I was 3-bet. If I had AA or KK, I would have bet the turn (I'd have a decision it make if I were raised there). If I had pocket queens, I would have raised the river. If I had something like KQ or QT, I probably would have bet the turn with that, too. There is absolutely no way I could call with Ace-high, unless I put DN on precisely K-high. Which would be pretty tough to do, considering that it was played like DN had a jack.

Generally, I would only call when I thought I was fifty-fifty to win the pot. But, there are no such hands here. Either I'm winning with a hand I'm comfortable enought to bet/raise with, or I've completely missed the board, which warrants a fold.

So, considering how it was played up to the river, I don't think there is any hand worth calling with.


EDIT: Ok, so I've read thru the posts. And, I'm standing with what I previously said, there aren't any hands to call with. Frankly, I'm amazed with how many cats are willing to call with Ace-high. Maybe the knowing Daniel had K3 makes it easier. If I don't know his hand, I can't call. Ace-high works in other places, not this one. Finding out that I (the villian) had K6, makes the fold automatic. For the sake of the actual villian, I hope he learns to fold there, too. Because DN noted that he tears the guy up, the villian should stop calling speculative hands at the river. Doesn't he notice that he's losing money?? He was lucky to get the chop.

i've never played 100/200, but ace high is an INSTACALL online for the villain, and king high should be an instamuck in most spots.

from what i've seen of high stakes live, though (that is, not on the tv), daniel's thinking is more spot-on.